Imprecatory Psalms

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Hamalas

whippersnapper
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?
 

Coram Deo

Puritan Board Junior
We Sing Them....

One of my favorites is Psalm 137...

Pick up the Book by Jay Adams "War Psalms of the Prince of Peace". Excellent work on the topic...


Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
Ben,

Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...

In the Psalm you referenced (Psalm 69), David was asking God to judge those who acted against His anointed. In the now God's anointed was David. Prophetically it was Messiah. David understood the holiness of God's anointed:

1 Samuel 24:10 10 "Behold, this day your eyes have seen that the LORD had given you today into my hand in the cave, and some said to kill you, but my eye had pity on you; and I said, 'I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the LORD'S anointed.'

Paul often had to defend his apostleship from those who worked against him:

1 Corinthians 9:1-2 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

At their core imprecatory Psalms are not about the wrong done to the author but about the injustice done to God. They are about God's holiness. Consider this imprecatory passage in Galatians:

Galatians 1:8-9 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Paul was consumed with the purity of the gospel, which is the word of God. By extension the gospel message is representative of Christ. Therefore, it is a matter of God's holiness and those that trample underfoot God's holiness or distort his word are subject to eternal anathema.

I believe your study of the imprecatory Psalms will be worthwhile if you focus on God's holiness and that the call for God's judgment is because his holiness is disrespected by the ungodly.
 

Jim Johnston

Puritan Board Sophomore
Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...

Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.

:2cents:
 

jaybird0827

PuritanBoard Honor Roll
Imprecatory Psalms are imprecations against God's enemies.

God is glorified in restraining, conquering and judging his enemies. Thus, to sing the imprecatory Psalms is glorifying to God. It also glorifies God when we remember that we are numbered among the most worthy objects of the imprecations, and that is only by God's grace and mercy that he has dealt so mercifully with us in making us his friends.

:2cents:
 

Hamalas

whippersnapper
Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...

Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.

:2cents:

Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?

P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!
 

VictorBravo

Administrator
Staff member
Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...

Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.

:2cents:

Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?

P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!

Psalm 55, for example:

For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

verses 12-15
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.

:2cents:

Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?

P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!

Psalm 55, for example:



For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

verses 12-15

This may sound weird but this Psalm was a great comfort to me when I was going through my divorce.
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?

P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!

Psalm 55, for example:



For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

verses 12-15

This may sound weird but this Psalm was a great comfort to me when I was going through my divorce.

Randy, amen. Not weird at all. Not every Psalm is imprecatory.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?

AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”

This is the command :

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).

God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?

AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”

This is the command :

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).

God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.

I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.

Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.

Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.

I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.

My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.

I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?

AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”

This is the command :

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).

God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.

I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.

Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.

Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.

I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.

My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.

I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.


Rich, do not hear what I am not saying. All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation. David did not have this revealed to him as we do now.

Until you and others grapple with the 2 verses I mentioned, no other conclusion can be reached. Ill repeat them again in case you missed them.

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."


And Luke where james and john wanted to be like elijah. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to validate their request, yet He rebukes them.

regardless of Christs response to the scribes or your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, this topic has little if anything to do with Law/ Gospel distinction.

We can pray imprecatory psalms with an eschalogical fullfilment guaranteed by the apostle John in Rev 19. The vindication will happen at that time alone, not any sooner nor later. This is where the comfort must lie, not in any temporary immediate judgment of God on our enemies and His.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation.

Randy wrote:
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation.

Randy wrote:
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version

I know he did. But I do not know what it means on regards to some proof of immediate judgment. I take it as a prophecy of what would be. For this could be the same man who Paul delivered to satan with Hymenaeus. And literally "The Lord will reward him or render him..."
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation.

Randy wrote:
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version

I know he did. But I do not know what it means on regards to some proof of immediate judgment. I take it as a prophecy of what would be. For this could be the same man who Paul delivered to satan with Hymenaeus. And literally "The Lord will reward him or render him..."

And literally your text quote is the Alexandrian text. Not the majority text.

And Paul's desire to see those with a false Gospel in Galatians to cut themelves was his understanding that they were cursed.

And I do believe God does reward the wicked here on earth. He has ministers of civil law for this. And I do believe we should support them and God's will in this. I also believe God sends punishment in disease and famine to the earth for men's wickedness. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Randy wrote:

I know he did. But I do not know what it means on regards to some proof of immediate judgment. I take it as a prophecy of what would be. For this could be the same man who Paul delivered to satan with Hymenaeus. And literally "The Lord will reward him or render him..."

And literally your text quote is the Alexandrian text. Not the majority text.

And Paul's desire to see those with a false Gospel in Galatians to cut themelves was his understanding that they were cursed.

And I do believe God does reward the wicked here on earth. He has ministers of civil law for this. And I do believe we should support them and God's will in this. I also believe God sends punishment in disease and famine to the earth for men's wickedness. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.



Yes God does this Himself without the prompting of sinful man Randy. I do not know about this manuscript stuff. But I do know it is a prophetic uterance that speaks of a present/future event put in God's hands. You have a conflict with Paul then Randy. One you will have trouble loosing yourself from.

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."


How are you to reconcile the above explicit command with 2 Tim 4:14? I know how to, but you have a paradoxical Paul in your mind I think. There are countless examples in the new testament speaking against temporal impreccatory prayers. I am not one to take 2 verses in a vaccuum and declare a dogmatic truth, for this just cannot be I am afraid.

As an aside, Paul also 'wished' himself accursed in Romans, so we must take this is just that. Hyperbole at its best. Or else he was praying and imprecation against himself which is an impossibility for one who was taken to the highest heaven to have the Gospel revealed to him.

"If any of the enemies of God's people belong to God's election, the Church's prayer against them giveth way to their conversion, and seeketh no more than that the judgment should follow them, only until they acknowledge their sin, turn, and seek God."

- David Dickson


The problem we have is stating that we have imprecatory pslams, when we do not. We have imprecations in the psalms. The amount is very limited and usually only a few verses of the whole. Our aim is to always pray for the righteousness of God to be seen on earth. Thy kingdom come..on earth is our prayer. We pray these prayers knowing full well that in the end the universal reign of God demands the eternal punishment of the wicked. The imprecatory psalms are the Old Testament expression of this godly attitude, nothing more and nothing less. Now when I speak of a progressive revelation, I do not mean it is from falsehood to truth, but from a partial to full revelation. Praying these words are never to be for personal revenge or some vendetta. They are only done to Glorify God. I just find it hard that man can do this without any personal reasons, and that is why I caution against them in this way.


There is a time of judgment, yet we should never be hasty in asking God for it.

“at the revelation of our Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus” (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Something which may be worth considering -- the Psalms are covenant songs, and therefore include the element of blessing and cursing. It is notable that the curse is not always threatened against others, but sometimes against the Psalmists themselves when engaging in protestations of innocence, e.g. Ps. 7:4, 5; 137:5, 6. This demonstrates there is no personal vindictiveness in the imprecations, but a deep concern for the righteousness of God and individual integrity in the covenant. The imprecations therefore are a calling upon the Lord to manifest who are true and who are false covenanters. In the same way the apostle Paul sets forth cursing and blessing within the context of the New Testament church, 1 Cor. 16:22, 23.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”

This is the command :

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).

God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.

I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.

Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.

Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.

I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.

My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.

I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.


Rich, do not hear what I am not saying. All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation. David did not have this revealed to him as we do now.

Until you and others grapple with the 2 verses I mentioned, no other conclusion can be reached. Ill repeat them again in case you missed them.

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."


And Luke where james and john wanted to be like elijah. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to validate their request, yet He rebukes them.

regardless of Christs response to the scribes or your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, this topic has little if anything to do with Law/ Gospel distinction.

We can pray imprecatory psalms with an eschalogical fullfilment guaranteed by the apostle John in Rev 19. The vindication will happen at that time alone, not any sooner nor later. This is where the comfort must lie, not in any temporary immediate judgment of God on our enemies and His.

I have no need to grapple with those verses Robert, as if they contradict the point I made, since I never denied we must show love to neighbor nor did I advocate the praying of imprecations against our "personal" enemies. David had to "grapple" with the same idea, though. He was no more permitted to hate men than we are. I don't agree with the characterization that the nature of the Law changed from OT to NT believer. The end of the Law has always been love of God and love of neighbor and you need to grapple with that issue and not place the OT Saints in some sort of separate category where David was permitted to hate neighbor as some sort of "eschatological intrusion".
 

Iconoclast

Puritan Board Junior
The verses quoted in Romans are in the Ot. In prov 25;
21If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

22For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
and Deut 32
35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
They existed with the psalms, not against them.
While we are not to take personal vengeance, we can and should pray against evildoer's and all who desire to profane holy things.
Many understand the prayer of those in Revelation 6:9-11 to have been answered in the judgment of 70AD.
20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
 

Iconoclast

Puritan Board Junior
6And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

7Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

12Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.

Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.

Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.

I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.

My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.

I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.


Rich, do not hear what I am not saying. All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation. David did not have this revealed to him as we do now.

Until you and others grapple with the 2 verses I mentioned, no other conclusion can be reached. Ill repeat them again in case you missed them.

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."


And Luke where james and john wanted to be like elijah. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to validate their request, yet He rebukes them.

regardless of Christs response to the scribes or your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, this topic has little if anything to do with Law/ Gospel distinction.

We can pray imprecatory psalms with an eschalogical fullfilment guaranteed by the apostle John in Rev 19. The vindication will happen at that time alone, not any sooner nor later. This is where the comfort must lie, not in any temporary immediate judgment of God on our enemies and His.

I have no need to grapple with those verses Robert, as if they contradict the point I made, since I never denied we must show love to neighbor nor did I advocate the praying of imprecations against our "personal" enemies. David had to "grapple" with the same idea, though. He was no more permitted to hate men than we are. I don't agree with the characterization that the nature of the Law changed from OT to NT believer. The end of the Law has always been love of God and love of neighbor and you need to grapple with that issue and not place the OT Saints in some sort of separate category where David was permitted to hate neighbor as some sort of "eschatological intrusion".



Again, you must be hearing what I am not saying Rich. I still do not see what Law vs grace has to do with this thread anyway.

BTW I do like the pithy saying "Eschalogical intrusion" now if that is all I can glean from your points, it is enough, I cant wait to use that when the time is right. Actually a good phrase to use againt post miller, dominionists!!! :)
 
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