Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
Well, we can celebrate something very important in all this ...... she did not abort the baby. So instead of a "baby shower" how about a "non-abortion party."
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There are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents.
But if the sin aspect does not register then why do they need to come to Christ?
CT
Until the Lord does the work in their hearts, they do not see what they are doing as sin.
So then a person is not a responsible for their sin until they become a Christian? So what does a person go to Hell for doing/not doing?
Until the Lord does the work in their hearts, they do not see what they are doing as sin.
So then a person is not a responsible for their sin until they become a Christian? So what does a person go to Hell for doing/not doing?
They go to hell because their sins were not atoned for since they were not elect and they hated God. Good works will not get them into heaven.
Well, we can celebrate something very important in all this ...... she did not abort the baby. So instead of a "baby shower" how about a "non-abortion party."
How should we as a people interact with and address the scores of illegitimate children within our communities?
How should we best condemn illegitimacy societally while loving the illegitmately-born in our midst?
We should interact with them as the children they are. How to address them? By name I imagine.
Preach the Gospel. Live the Gospel. Address the societal concerns during the prayer, small groups, and one-on-one discipleship. Have the youth leaders bringing up issues that the parents are deficient. Have the elders address the deficiencies of the parents to the parents. Make efforts to bombard them with as much of the Gospel and how it is to be lived out as possible.
Our youth are not blind nor stupid. They see no difference between us and the rest of the world. The only difference is we have some place to go dressed up on Sunday while they get to sleep in...otherwise we are identical.
I'm guessing you mean that "to them, the only difference is..." right?
So then a person is not a responsible for their sin until they become a Christian? So what does a person go to Hell for doing/not doing?
They go to hell because their sins were not atoned for since they were not elect and they hated God. Good works will not get them into heaven.
So sin is breaking a rule that they did not/could not know about?
CT
We should interact with them as the children they are. How to address them? By name I imagine.
Preach the Gospel. Live the Gospel. Address the societal concerns during the prayer, small groups, and one-on-one discipleship. Have the youth leaders bringing up issues that the parents are deficient. Have the elders address the deficiencies of the parents to the parents. Make efforts to bombard them with as much of the Gospel and how it is to be lived out as possible.
Our youth are not blind nor stupid. They see no difference between us and the rest of the world. The only difference is we have some place to go dressed up on Sunday while they get to sleep in...otherwise we are identical.
I'm guessing you mean that "to them, the only difference is..." right?
Not really. We can pretend to be all holy here but this is not the real world. 87% of America claims to be Christian and we have just as much adultery, divorce, fornication, and abortion than our secular counterparts...so what is the difference?
Unless there is a true difference that can be seen in our lives the only difference is we get dressed up on Sunday. Kids need to see the difference. They are the best BS detectors and contemporary Christianity has some of the best BS.
-----Added 3/18/2009 at 07:52:14 EST-----
They go to hell because their sins were not atoned for since they were not elect and they hated God. Good works will not get them into heaven.
So sin is breaking a rule that they did not/could not know about?
CT
They are sinning regardless of whether they know the "rules" or not. However, I don't see that one is going to be cognizant of that sin until they are regenerated. I just don't think going around accusing unbelievers of sin is a particularly effective form of evangelism, but you certainly may disagree.
I'm guessing you mean that "to them, the only difference is..." right?
Not really. We can pretend to be all holy here but this is not the real world. 87% of America claims to be Christian and we have just as much adultery, divorce, fornication, and abortion than our secular counterparts...so what is the difference?
Unless there is a true difference that can be seen in our lives the only difference is we get dressed up on Sunday. Kids need to see the difference. They are the best BS detectors and contemporary Christianity has some of the best BS.
Who are the "we" that you are addressing? The professing Christians in the US, the reformed, the what?
If you are using the professing Christians metric, then why should that apply to those here on this board? If I am not living as those in the world, then why should I be in the line of fire for others living wildly? Should I go around and make those living wildly, recant their Christian profession?
CT
So sin is breaking a rule that they did not/could not know about?
CT
There are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents.
But the problem is, covenantally those children are represented by their parents, just as an adopted child is represented by those parents who adopt him.
Children born of an unlawful sexual union is what makes children illegitimate.
So sin is breaking a rule that they did not/could not know about?
CT
"the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;"
I'm guessing you mean that "to them, the only difference is..." right?
Not really. We can pretend to be all holy here but this is not the real world. 87% of America claims to be Christian and we have just as much adultery, divorce, fornication, and abortion than our secular counterparts...so what is the difference?
Unless there is a true difference that can be seen in our lives the only difference is we get dressed up on Sunday. Kids need to see the difference. They are the best BS detectors and contemporary Christianity has some of the best BS.
Who are the "we" that you are addressing? The professing Christians in the US, the reformed, the what?
If you are using the professing Christians metric, then why should that apply to those here on this board? If I am not living as those in the world, then why should I be in the line of fire for others living wildly? Should I go around and make those living wildly, recant their Christian profession?
CT
-----Added 3/18/2009 at 07:57:54 EST-----
-----Added 3/18/2009 at 07:52:14 EST-----
So sin is breaking a rule that they did not/could not know about?
CT
They are sinning regardless of whether they know the "rules" or not. However, I don't see that one is going to be cognizant of that sin until they are regenerated. I just don't think going around accusing unbelievers of sin is a particularly effective form of evangelism, but you certainly may disagree.
I guess my question to you is to justify your position that they cannot be held responsible for knowing that their actions are evil until they are regenerated.
Or put another way, was John the Baptist being ineffective when he called out King Herod for taking his brother's wife. I do not think there was any reason to believe that the King was a Christian.
CT
Honoring her for what? Secondly, there is the question of repentant vs. non repentant?
CT
Regardless of the circumstances of a child's conception, motherhood is an honorable thing. Now, this honor doesn't have to come in the form of a baby shower, but the blanket "no showers" prohibition that's being expressed here makes no sense to me.
Now, if a (supposedly Christian) woman is unrepentant/rebellious/etc, then maybe a shower isn't the best idea, but this thread seems to assume that EVERY unwed mom fits into this category.
Does this not reduce down to honoring her for not murdering her child?
CT
Not really. We can pretend to be all holy here but this is not the real world. 87% of America claims to be Christian and we have just as much adultery, divorce, fornication, and abortion than our secular counterparts...so what is the difference?
Unless there is a true difference that can be seen in our lives the only difference is we get dressed up on Sunday. Kids need to see the difference. They are the best BS detectors and contemporary Christianity has some of the best BS.
Who are the "we" that you are addressing? The professing Christians in the US, the reformed, the what?
If you are using the professing Christians metric, then why should that apply to those here on this board? If I am not living as those in the world, then why should I be in the line of fire for others living wildly? Should I go around and make those living wildly, recant their Christian profession?
CT
Do not begin to tell me that Confessional Reformed Christians here on this board are immune. Living wildly? We are called the "frozen chosen" for a reason. We not only do not live wildly we do not do anything wildly.
Focus on the issue being that professing Christians regardless of holding to a Confession have "baby mama drama." I know of more than one elder who has left to a more liberal denomination because his daughters fornicated and were later discovered to be pregnant. Were these men weak? In this situation it is all about weak men. Weak pastors, weak elders, weak fathers, weak sons...all pointing the finger back at Eve.
Do not begin to tell me that Confessional Reformed Christians here on this board are immune. Living wildly? We are called the "frozen chosen" for a reason. We not only do not live wildly we do not do anything wildly.
I could be wrong in assuming this but the pregnancy isn't the sin and the sin isn't being dealt with by not giving a baby shower. God planned for that baby before time, it was God who opened her womb. The sex outside of marriage should be dealt with. I'm guessing that is should be dealt with the same way that many other sins are dealt with in the church. The couple or mother should get counseling from people within the church. Then if she is repentant they could set her up with a mentor, an older lady to disciple her.
Again, the event being celebrated (pregnancy and impending birth) isn't a shameful thing. I understand where you're coming from, Jessi, but it seems that you're equating the sin with its consequence (which happens to be a blessing) -- if not explicitly, then at least by implication. Showers usually take place in the seventh or eighth month of pregnancy anyway. There's plenty of time during the pregnancy beforehand for appropriate shame to take root and repentance to take place. By the time a shower would happen, it'd be about darn time to celebrate.
At least I'd think so.
Also, are we necessarily talking about the church organizing a shower? I'm coming at it from the perspective of Christian friends. (I've never even heard of a church organizing a shower for a married woman.)
Children born of an unlawful sexual union is what makes children illegitimate.
"Illegitimate children" is a very unfortunate term. It's been coined by a sinful secular society (although Christians have, unthinkingly, used the term also) as a way to "blame the victim" thereby throwing the spotlight off the real culprits - those having sex outside marriage.
It's the unlawful sexual union that's illegitimate, not the children who are produced.
The term "illegitimate children" is illegitimate.
Children born of an unlawful sexual union is what makes children illegitimate.
"Illegitimate children" is a very unfortunate term. It's been coined by a sinful secular society (although Christians have, unthinkingly, used the term also) as a way to "blame the victim" thereby throwing the spotlight off the real culprits - those having sex outside marriage.
It's the unlawful sexual union that's illegitimate, not the children who are produced.
The term "illegitimate children" is illegitimate.
Thank you. You articulated that way better than I attempted to on the previous page.
Children born of an unlawful sexual union is what makes children illegitimate.
"Illegitimate children" is a very unfortunate term. It's been coined by a sinful secular society (although Christians have, unthinkingly, used the term also) as a way to "blame the victim" thereby throwing the spotlight off the real culprits - those having sex outside marriage.
It's the unlawful sexual union that's illegitimate, not the children who are produced.
The term "illegitimate children" is illegitimate.
I don't know the total history of the term "illegitimate" but I image it came into use as a more polite way to say "bastard". I don't advocate either term.
Again, the event being celebrated (pregnancy and impending birth) isn't a shameful thing. I understand where you're coming from, Jessi, but it seems that you're equating the sin with its consequence (which happens to be a blessing) -- if not explicitly, then at least by implication. Showers usually take place in the seventh or eighth month of pregnancy anyway. There's plenty of time during the pregnancy beforehand for appropriate shame to take root and repentance to take place. By the time a shower would happen, it'd be about darn time to celebrate.
At least I'd think so.
Also, are we necessarily talking about the church organizing a shower? I'm coming at it from the perspective of Christian friends. (I've never even heard of a church organizing a shower for a married woman.)
I am dealing in the abstract here, and I think when real people are involved, love may stir you toward various responses. For you personally it was not in the abstract, and I can see how you may be personally offended by my answers. If so, please forgive me. I am honestly just trying to say what I think the most principled response would be. I have never, though, responded thusly when my friends and family have had showers for babies born out of wedlock. I just think I would feel that there was something dishonest if the ladies of my church threw a baby shower for an unwed mother. I think, though, we would be more than required to fill any needs the mom would have.
Thank you for that post, as it has given me a lot to chew on.Please forgive me for the length of this response…It is an issue I have much experience with. I don’t know how to cut quotes yet so I’m not replying to any specific post unless mentioned specifically. God bless you all for wanting to figure out what the biblical way is to handle this matter.
Most of what I have written is more to raise questions for thought. I don’t have specific scriptures but I would point strongly to considering at the foundation what is the role of the church, elders and discipline and where do baby showers fit in.
Brothers and Sisters, please think carefully and tread lightly when you discuss these matters in your homes and before your children. I have known oh so many girls, more professing Christians than not, in the reformed churches, who have been pregnant out of wedlock, and I will promise you, none of them were thinking they should get themselves in the same way because mom and dad were just “too compassionate” toward some pregnant girl at church. I know far too well that watching parents take just a tiny blush of prideful glee in the statement “not my daughter” or a little moment of tsk tsk too fondly relished over another’s sinful fall , has seemed to set a hardening seed and a loathing of hypocrisy in the young of the church. By all means, teach and proclaim God’s word about chastity, purity (not “just” virginity which can be “technically kept” without true purity) and marriage, but with humility and “there but for the grace of God go I and my sons and daughters” on our hearts and tongues. It is all too easy to make pregnancy the sin.
1. The throwing of baby showers for married or single women is not a “function” of the church. I understand the women often get together and throw such things, but I for one would keep them out of any remote sense of their being a “church event.” In addition, they can bring all sorts of quandaries such as the one in question? Do showers only get thrown for members and how is this made clear to visitors who aren’t members so no one is confused or hurt? If they only get thrown for members and the young women in question has not been excommunicated, you have your answer.
2.Having been on the receiving and giving end of showers, I’ve yet to see them as “honoring the mother” for herself as seems to be suggested by some of the writers (perhaps male?) They are meant to help feather the nest, in preparation for the baby. Yes I know many women love the games and such but I’d rather see that skipped on ALL showers not just the “illegitimate” ones. (now I’ve really offended) The women in puritan times made ready to die when they were “brought to bed” (term for giving birth) and were very sober minded at the anticipation of such. I’m not suggesting horror stories of birth and death, but could we not keep to a prayerful“Lord willing” frame of mind about the impending birth and child? Each birth is still travail and can yet have very uncertain outcome.
3.One cannot have God open one’s womb and be an illegitimate parent, God doesn’t do illegitimate. As has been mentioned by some, fornication is the sin, not conception. And there is a father to share the guilt regardless of his presence or not.
4.I understand that there are consequences of sin. However, is it not the responsibility of the session to make and carry out the consequences that the church court has instituted?(And I believe that discipline is it’s own form of compassion btw) When it is, in essence being suggested that one of the reasons we wouldn’t give a shower is to “remind the women who is pregnant out of wedlock of the consequences of her sin”, I have to ask, since when is the job of the body at large, to remind others of their sin and its consequences?(Is this not primarily a function of the pulpit ministry and teaching and discipline of elders?) Are we not to weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn? Are we not to rejoice in those who are repentant and long to see them fully restored? In the case of the repentant and potentially submitting to discipline pregnant unmarried woman in our congregations, is there not cause for both weeping and joy? Do we feel a need to remind other’s of sin’s consequences more for some sin’s than others? If so why?
Do we discipline our children at home and then go on about it for weeks to come, how they have fallen? Or do we discipline and instruct them, and then watch them as they move on from that place prayerful and hopeful that they have learned. When does the statute of limitations run out on our “reminding” the single mother of her downfall? 9 months, when the baby has arrived? When the baby turns 18? (Again, I am assuming you are not asking about a shower for a girl/woman still living in sexual sin)
The single mother, who has presumably already been repentant and is undergoing discipline and instruction from elders, is she not going to live enough real world consequences from this and the reality alone, without us adding to it by our continued “refusal to rejoice in any way shape or form” over the impending baby?(I suggest not smiling at the baby for the first year if you really want to get the message across) Should she not, be able to tell her child when it is older, of the practical help and love the saints administered after the sting of the rod? Or should she rather have stories of how everything was very hush hush and cloaked in scorn to help her learn her lesson.
Do children not listen to stories of before they were born, and what was done in preparation for them, as awaiting “THEM”…and if so how can having loving if not “exuberantly party like” preps not be a good way to show that the child is welcome.
I suggest you ask the question as well, are we treating a fallen covenant young woman’s out of wedlock pregnancy differently if we had an unregenerate visitor in our midst? E.g., if we had a girl sent over from a pregnancy rescue center to fellowship with us for a few months, would we rejoice in her baby and give her a shower? (after all we’d be keen to show her how nice Christians are and how we love those who don’t abort their babies)
Someone suggested asked if it’s come to throwing showers for those who don’t abort, well has it?(Great Chris Rock illustration btw) Maybe, depends on if the mom is regenerate or not, but I ask you how would you explain to your children/church youth, if you treat a visiting crisis pregnancy girl different than a covenant crisis pregnancy girl. (ie showers for the former, gifts after the baby given on the down low for the other)
Please feel free If you want clarification of this, I’m writing late at night with my proof-reader snoring away next to me.
With warm Christian regards,
Susan Nye Ferrell (Member Sovereign Redeemer OPC Boise Idaho)