dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I posted this in 3 parts under the thread on Idolatry in a debate forum between Roman Catholics and Protestants. The subject was RC Idolatry. I did place several hours work today into composing my piece but I felt I needed to do it and I believe God wanted me to write and share it with others. I wan to share it with all here on the PB. I think it is one of the more important posts I have written. I plan to also share it with my , pastor at my Presbyterian church who is also my bible instructor and adult Sunday school class instructor after Sunday services at my Presbyterian church. Thanks, Dudley
A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis
Part 1 Reading the bible alone “A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis I am breaking my response into 3 parts so it may be easily read. Please immediately read part 2 and 3 after reading part 1 .
Greg you said “you guys don’t have to worry about me. I totally understand the paintings and sculptures that are in my home and in my church are Icons.” You might recognize them as Icons however millions of less educated and less informed sincere people who are seeking God and the truth do not. They do not because they are not encouraged or even told to read the Bible in the catholic church. Instead they take what the RCC has told them and they end up through no fault of their own giving homage to the image and not what they represent.
They are sadly because they are misguided by the RCC relying on the commandments of men and not the commandments of God. Even if you list the ten commandments the RCC has removed the second commandment and divided the 9th and 10th into two items. They removed the second commandment so even if they read the bible the church could not be accused of Idolatry. And of course that is why the RCC has its own authorized version of the bible and encourages its members to be careful if they attend a bible class given in a Protestant church by a Protestant minister and they warn them they should stay only with the RCC version of the bible. I know because I was a Roman catholic; went to RC schools and I have read both bibles ,taught Confirmation classes in the Roman catholic church and I have attended bible classes in Protestant settings with protestant ministers and also the same in Roman catholic settings . I have in my library the RC sanctioned versions of the Bible including student editions and I have the NIV bible the KJV of the bible and the Jerusalem bible and the Reformation study bible and several different modern translations of the Bible. I read and compare and decide from the written word what the truth is. Take a look at the differences below.
Abbreviated Protestant Ten Commandments:
You shall have no other gods but me.
You shall not make unto you any graven images
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your mother and father
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:
I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
Honor your father and your mother
You shall not kill
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
Part 2 Reading the bible alone “A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis part 2 will be followed by part 3 , my post is too long to post in less than 3 parts.
Greg I am going to share with you and the others a little story which I hope will help you and the others understand my position on how to discover truth and what the truth really is. Bear with me while I give my little story. I hope it will help you and others understand where you are erroneous in your argument above. My discourses as you and others have noted are long but “the search for the truth is a hard deer to hunt’ in other words it is sometimes a long road to travel ;the phrase I note is taken from the short story “By the Waters of Babylon” by Stephen Vincent Benet. I also taught literature and social studies at the high school level in NYC for11 years during and after my time in the United States Navy.
Greg in 1969 I was one of the first 28 Americans to live and study inside the then Soviet Union at the height of the cold war. I was behind what was then called “the Iron Curtain“, a phrase coined by Winston Churchill in a speech he gave in 1946 the year I was born; describing a great invisible wall that had been drawn between East and West by the then Soviet Union. I lived and studied behind enemy lines. I am one of a few privileged living Americans who have been able to see by actually living and being in both places the freedom of the West and the oppression that existed in the East. I was a senior in a Roman catholic college and also in a Naval training program; I served in the US Navy in low level intelligence during the Viet Nam war from 1967 to 1973. I was in the Soviet Union as part of the Nixon/Kissinger detente plan to help bring an end to the war in Viet Nam and to also end the cold war.
We lived and studied and mingled with Russian students and Nato alliance European country students doing the same in the cities of Leningrad, now St Petersburg, and Moscow. One spring evening in 1969 while in Moscow two other American friends and I decided to go to a Russian bar on our own. We were not supposed to. We were only supposed to go to the approved “Berioska bars” for Americans and European students studying in Moscow. In the Berioska bars there were no Russians to mingle with, only the bartenders and workers were Russians and they were not to have any inter discussions with us. We did have inter discussions and mingling but only with Soviet Russian students approved and sanctioned to be with us during the day time.
We found a little local Russian Pub and went and met there a few students from Finland who were doing the same as we were. The Finnish students and us met a group of Russians there and we started to drink together and mingle and discuss things as they are said to be!
During the evening one of the Russian students asked me a profound question, he said “ what is the difference between your country and our country? We had our revolution you had yours and we are both looking for a better way of life, what really is the difference? I thought for only a moment and said “ well can you have a copy of the New York Times delivered to you in your flat here in Moscow? He responded well No! I said to him and the others I can have Pravda and Investia, (then the official and only sanctioned news papers in the Soviet Union, which were official news agencies and organs of the state shouting the teachings of Lenin and the Communist party only),delivered to me at my residence in the United States. He responded well I can go to the library and read the New York Times. I said yes you can and I have been to your library here in Moscow and I have seen the New York Times there but there are articles that are blacked out or even cut out in the paper in the library. He simply responded well yes that is true but “the Officials” tell us that there are certain things not yet good for us to know, the revolution is not completed and continues. I responded well that is the difference then , I can get periodicals from all over the world I can listen to broadcasts from all over the world , I can even read your papers unedited as well as many different newspapers within the United States. I can decide from the written word and my God given intelligence and well formed and educated conscience what is really the truth!
Part 3 and conclusion to Reading the bible alone “A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis
You see Greg in America the Revolution was completed , it was finished and accomplished with Washington’s victory at Yorktown where Cornwallis and the British forces surrendered to George Washington and the American troops. We today bear the fruits of the finished revolution and we live in this wonderful and free country because the revolution was completed and made it so.
Christ’s work on the cross finished the act of redemption so that all could live in Glory and freedom from turmoil in Paradise with Him and the Father all the saints for all eternity, simply by placing their faith in Christ alone and His finished work of redemption on Calvary. You see Greg the Revolution was finished, accomplished as was the redemptive work of Christ on Calvary, the bible says that Christ said ‘It is finished, into your hands ‘Abba” I commend my spirit.” Greg “The officials” of the RCC in their commandments and dictates try to say “there are certain things not yet good for you to know“; the work of redemption is not yet finished and you must work hard yourself if you wish to gain heaven! The work of salvation for many is not yet completed and the work continues!
Greg, you and the other RC defenders in this forum and other Roman Catholics never address the point as to what the scriptures say which is Gods word on a given matter and instead you keep referring to the catechism of the catholic church. I quote you Greg ,you said “I urge you all to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, take from the source, to find out what Catholics really believe about Icons.” I and Derwood and the other Protestants on this forum continue to ask and we challenge you to read and respond to our questions to not what the catholic church says but to what Bible says , what God thus says. I will say as a Protestant I try to emphasize my arguments from what the Bible says and not as a Reformed Protestant who subscribes to the WCF and the Reformed Book of Confessions to what the Confessions say but what does the Bible say. I use the Reformed Confessions as a guide but it is the Bible I follow as the final authority never the Reformed book of Confessions. I use the Bible which is as you and all agree, the word of God, the truth. In other words Greg what does God say about Icons which are art yes, but are they not as Roman Catholics use them ‘Graven Images? In my view as a Protestant after reading the scriptures and the word of God; I believe they are in the way the RCC uses them. I recognize and appreciate as a student and teacher of history, literature and art the great artists of the world like Michelangelo and I appreciate the beauty of “the Pieta” which is probably the world's most famous sculpture of a religious subject, the Mother of Christ holding her crucified son as he was taken from the cross, Michelangelo carved it when he was 24 years old. It does bring tears to my eyes when I view its beauty and realize the pain of his mother at the death of her earthy son and the pain and suffering of Christ alone to finish for all the work of Redemption but I never bow down and give homage to it or venerate it. I was 17 years old when I first saw the actual Pieta carved by Michelangelo up close and not just in a photograph, but the actual piece of art. I appreciate all of Michelangelo’s works and many of his and other fine artists work, but I view them only as art. I know the story behind the art but I will not and do not venerate or in any way give homage to any artistic image. The only image I view as a Protestant and look to is the cross, not the crucifix , but the cross only which is the symbol of the resurrected Christ , not the dead and dying Christ of the crucifix which the Roman catholic church wants its people to see. I say that in all truth, Rome wants Christ dead on the cross in the minds of men because she denies the finished work of Christ on the cross in her distorted gospel and all she teaches. She teaches a Gospel of works and despair , she teaches men that there are certain things not yet good for them to know. Those things are that we are made righteous by the redemptive act of Christ on Calvary alone. We are Justified in faith by accepting the gift of grace alone from God and placing our faith alone in Christ alone and looking to the scriptures alone as our only and final authority and giving all Glory and Honor to God alone!
I ask and challenge you any and all of the RC defenders on this forum to answer the question above : Do you not give homage to graven images in your Roman catholic religion? I challenge you to use the Bible only as the source of your argument , do not refer to the catechism of the catholic church or the dogmas and dictate of Rome and her pope. Use only the Bible in your argument Greg if you do agree that scripture is the Word of God and that word of God should be our final authority. I will even concede to you using your RC catechism as a guide if you wish as I and other Reformed Protestants use the Reformed book of Confessions and the larger and smaller catechisms of the Presbyterian church as a guide, but I challenge you to use the bible only as your basis for your argument.
I believe the word of God and it is why I am today a Protestant and a Presbyterian and why I profess the Reformed faith which is I truly believe the faith of the apostles and the church as Christ intended and restored to it uncorrupted foundation by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. It is why I renounce Roman Catholicism and her pope and all her apostate teachings and proclaim to all I am no longer a Roman catholic I am a Protestant and only by the grace of God! I owe my salvation to God and His son Jesus Christ alone, He (God) gave me the intelligence to search for and find the truth by opening my mind to His word and receiving in my soul His grace which then revealed to me the truth of the written word of God. I have and live by the privilege also of living on both sides of the argument so to speak I have lived and studied and professed my Christian beliefs in the Roman catholic camp and I have and now live and study in the Protestant camp. I have had the privilege that not all men do; God gave me a great gift by being born into a Roman catholic family baptized and raised Roman catholic and then through many of life’s experiences be allowed to see and discover both sides of many things. I have searched and discovered finally in my senior years the great truth of salvation and thus today it is why I am a Protestant! I hope that perhaps I can open the eyes of others to receive as I have the truth by opening your mind an heart to God alone and by reading the Bible and knowing what God says! I believe today the bible is our only and final authority and it is the word of God! God has given me I believe a great gift; a vision to see the truth and I wish and I think God would like me to share that vision with others.
Sincerely and in faith,
Dudley
Dudley Davis
87 Fairway Court Apt K
Lakewood NJ 08701
Cell phone 732-730-0712
Home phone 732- 987-5725
Email [email protected]
Member of the First Presbyterian Church of Manasquan NJ
A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis
Part 1 Reading the bible alone “A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis I am breaking my response into 3 parts so it may be easily read. Please immediately read part 2 and 3 after reading part 1 .
Greg you said “you guys don’t have to worry about me. I totally understand the paintings and sculptures that are in my home and in my church are Icons.” You might recognize them as Icons however millions of less educated and less informed sincere people who are seeking God and the truth do not. They do not because they are not encouraged or even told to read the Bible in the catholic church. Instead they take what the RCC has told them and they end up through no fault of their own giving homage to the image and not what they represent.
They are sadly because they are misguided by the RCC relying on the commandments of men and not the commandments of God. Even if you list the ten commandments the RCC has removed the second commandment and divided the 9th and 10th into two items. They removed the second commandment so even if they read the bible the church could not be accused of Idolatry. And of course that is why the RCC has its own authorized version of the bible and encourages its members to be careful if they attend a bible class given in a Protestant church by a Protestant minister and they warn them they should stay only with the RCC version of the bible. I know because I was a Roman catholic; went to RC schools and I have read both bibles ,taught Confirmation classes in the Roman catholic church and I have attended bible classes in Protestant settings with protestant ministers and also the same in Roman catholic settings . I have in my library the RC sanctioned versions of the Bible including student editions and I have the NIV bible the KJV of the bible and the Jerusalem bible and the Reformation study bible and several different modern translations of the Bible. I read and compare and decide from the written word what the truth is. Take a look at the differences below.
Abbreviated Protestant Ten Commandments:
You shall have no other gods but me.
You shall not make unto you any graven images
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your mother and father
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:
I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
Honor your father and your mother
You shall not kill
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
Part 2 Reading the bible alone “A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis part 2 will be followed by part 3 , my post is too long to post in less than 3 parts.
Greg I am going to share with you and the others a little story which I hope will help you and the others understand my position on how to discover truth and what the truth really is. Bear with me while I give my little story. I hope it will help you and others understand where you are erroneous in your argument above. My discourses as you and others have noted are long but “the search for the truth is a hard deer to hunt’ in other words it is sometimes a long road to travel ;the phrase I note is taken from the short story “By the Waters of Babylon” by Stephen Vincent Benet. I also taught literature and social studies at the high school level in NYC for11 years during and after my time in the United States Navy.
Greg in 1969 I was one of the first 28 Americans to live and study inside the then Soviet Union at the height of the cold war. I was behind what was then called “the Iron Curtain“, a phrase coined by Winston Churchill in a speech he gave in 1946 the year I was born; describing a great invisible wall that had been drawn between East and West by the then Soviet Union. I lived and studied behind enemy lines. I am one of a few privileged living Americans who have been able to see by actually living and being in both places the freedom of the West and the oppression that existed in the East. I was a senior in a Roman catholic college and also in a Naval training program; I served in the US Navy in low level intelligence during the Viet Nam war from 1967 to 1973. I was in the Soviet Union as part of the Nixon/Kissinger detente plan to help bring an end to the war in Viet Nam and to also end the cold war.
We lived and studied and mingled with Russian students and Nato alliance European country students doing the same in the cities of Leningrad, now St Petersburg, and Moscow. One spring evening in 1969 while in Moscow two other American friends and I decided to go to a Russian bar on our own. We were not supposed to. We were only supposed to go to the approved “Berioska bars” for Americans and European students studying in Moscow. In the Berioska bars there were no Russians to mingle with, only the bartenders and workers were Russians and they were not to have any inter discussions with us. We did have inter discussions and mingling but only with Soviet Russian students approved and sanctioned to be with us during the day time.
We found a little local Russian Pub and went and met there a few students from Finland who were doing the same as we were. The Finnish students and us met a group of Russians there and we started to drink together and mingle and discuss things as they are said to be!
During the evening one of the Russian students asked me a profound question, he said “ what is the difference between your country and our country? We had our revolution you had yours and we are both looking for a better way of life, what really is the difference? I thought for only a moment and said “ well can you have a copy of the New York Times delivered to you in your flat here in Moscow? He responded well No! I said to him and the others I can have Pravda and Investia, (then the official and only sanctioned news papers in the Soviet Union, which were official news agencies and organs of the state shouting the teachings of Lenin and the Communist party only),delivered to me at my residence in the United States. He responded well I can go to the library and read the New York Times. I said yes you can and I have been to your library here in Moscow and I have seen the New York Times there but there are articles that are blacked out or even cut out in the paper in the library. He simply responded well yes that is true but “the Officials” tell us that there are certain things not yet good for us to know, the revolution is not completed and continues. I responded well that is the difference then , I can get periodicals from all over the world I can listen to broadcasts from all over the world , I can even read your papers unedited as well as many different newspapers within the United States. I can decide from the written word and my God given intelligence and well formed and educated conscience what is really the truth!
Part 3 and conclusion to Reading the bible alone “A gift and a vision” by Dudley Davis
You see Greg in America the Revolution was completed , it was finished and accomplished with Washington’s victory at Yorktown where Cornwallis and the British forces surrendered to George Washington and the American troops. We today bear the fruits of the finished revolution and we live in this wonderful and free country because the revolution was completed and made it so.
Christ’s work on the cross finished the act of redemption so that all could live in Glory and freedom from turmoil in Paradise with Him and the Father all the saints for all eternity, simply by placing their faith in Christ alone and His finished work of redemption on Calvary. You see Greg the Revolution was finished, accomplished as was the redemptive work of Christ on Calvary, the bible says that Christ said ‘It is finished, into your hands ‘Abba” I commend my spirit.” Greg “The officials” of the RCC in their commandments and dictates try to say “there are certain things not yet good for you to know“; the work of redemption is not yet finished and you must work hard yourself if you wish to gain heaven! The work of salvation for many is not yet completed and the work continues!
Greg, you and the other RC defenders in this forum and other Roman Catholics never address the point as to what the scriptures say which is Gods word on a given matter and instead you keep referring to the catechism of the catholic church. I quote you Greg ,you said “I urge you all to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, take from the source, to find out what Catholics really believe about Icons.” I and Derwood and the other Protestants on this forum continue to ask and we challenge you to read and respond to our questions to not what the catholic church says but to what Bible says , what God thus says. I will say as a Protestant I try to emphasize my arguments from what the Bible says and not as a Reformed Protestant who subscribes to the WCF and the Reformed Book of Confessions to what the Confessions say but what does the Bible say. I use the Reformed Confessions as a guide but it is the Bible I follow as the final authority never the Reformed book of Confessions. I use the Bible which is as you and all agree, the word of God, the truth. In other words Greg what does God say about Icons which are art yes, but are they not as Roman Catholics use them ‘Graven Images? In my view as a Protestant after reading the scriptures and the word of God; I believe they are in the way the RCC uses them. I recognize and appreciate as a student and teacher of history, literature and art the great artists of the world like Michelangelo and I appreciate the beauty of “the Pieta” which is probably the world's most famous sculpture of a religious subject, the Mother of Christ holding her crucified son as he was taken from the cross, Michelangelo carved it when he was 24 years old. It does bring tears to my eyes when I view its beauty and realize the pain of his mother at the death of her earthy son and the pain and suffering of Christ alone to finish for all the work of Redemption but I never bow down and give homage to it or venerate it. I was 17 years old when I first saw the actual Pieta carved by Michelangelo up close and not just in a photograph, but the actual piece of art. I appreciate all of Michelangelo’s works and many of his and other fine artists work, but I view them only as art. I know the story behind the art but I will not and do not venerate or in any way give homage to any artistic image. The only image I view as a Protestant and look to is the cross, not the crucifix , but the cross only which is the symbol of the resurrected Christ , not the dead and dying Christ of the crucifix which the Roman catholic church wants its people to see. I say that in all truth, Rome wants Christ dead on the cross in the minds of men because she denies the finished work of Christ on the cross in her distorted gospel and all she teaches. She teaches a Gospel of works and despair , she teaches men that there are certain things not yet good for them to know. Those things are that we are made righteous by the redemptive act of Christ on Calvary alone. We are Justified in faith by accepting the gift of grace alone from God and placing our faith alone in Christ alone and looking to the scriptures alone as our only and final authority and giving all Glory and Honor to God alone!
I ask and challenge you any and all of the RC defenders on this forum to answer the question above : Do you not give homage to graven images in your Roman catholic religion? I challenge you to use the Bible only as the source of your argument , do not refer to the catechism of the catholic church or the dogmas and dictate of Rome and her pope. Use only the Bible in your argument Greg if you do agree that scripture is the Word of God and that word of God should be our final authority. I will even concede to you using your RC catechism as a guide if you wish as I and other Reformed Protestants use the Reformed book of Confessions and the larger and smaller catechisms of the Presbyterian church as a guide, but I challenge you to use the bible only as your basis for your argument.
I believe the word of God and it is why I am today a Protestant and a Presbyterian and why I profess the Reformed faith which is I truly believe the faith of the apostles and the church as Christ intended and restored to it uncorrupted foundation by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. It is why I renounce Roman Catholicism and her pope and all her apostate teachings and proclaim to all I am no longer a Roman catholic I am a Protestant and only by the grace of God! I owe my salvation to God and His son Jesus Christ alone, He (God) gave me the intelligence to search for and find the truth by opening my mind to His word and receiving in my soul His grace which then revealed to me the truth of the written word of God. I have and live by the privilege also of living on both sides of the argument so to speak I have lived and studied and professed my Christian beliefs in the Roman catholic camp and I have and now live and study in the Protestant camp. I have had the privilege that not all men do; God gave me a great gift by being born into a Roman catholic family baptized and raised Roman catholic and then through many of life’s experiences be allowed to see and discover both sides of many things. I have searched and discovered finally in my senior years the great truth of salvation and thus today it is why I am a Protestant! I hope that perhaps I can open the eyes of others to receive as I have the truth by opening your mind an heart to God alone and by reading the Bible and knowing what God says! I believe today the bible is our only and final authority and it is the word of God! God has given me I believe a great gift; a vision to see the truth and I wish and I think God would like me to share that vision with others.
Sincerely and in faith,
Dudley
Dudley Davis
87 Fairway Court Apt K
Lakewood NJ 08701
Cell phone 732-730-0712
Home phone 732- 987-5725
Email [email protected]
Member of the First Presbyterian Church of Manasquan NJ
