mrhartley85
Puritan Board Freshman
How did you get her on board?
I need your advice
- Thread starter mrhartley85
- Start date
- Status
Solparvus
Puritan Board Senior
It wasn’t really a matter of getting her on board. We started having questions at the same time, and I initiated the conversation about considering a change in views. So, we studied the Scriptures for about two months together, prayed together. She was thirsty to understand, because there were some things in Scripture that were not making sense to her, but made great sense after our change in views.
The Lord does it. Before November I thought it was an impossible view, and she wasn’t open until about then either. It was in His providence.
Afterthought
Puritan Board Senior
It varies, but oftentimes they will have two worship services on the Lord's day and then a mid-week prayer meeting (which I suppose functions as a more formal bible study mid-week). In some churches (including my own), we will semi-frequently get together for other occasions, such as psalm sings or a church picnic. Some churches will have their own home bible studies also, depending on interest, size of the church, etc.
However, you don't have to only meet with friends on church sanctioned occasions. Some of the families in my church will meet for other activities or invite each other over for dinner or something. Since we are all Christians, we cannot help but have Christian fellowship along with whatever other social activities we do; indeed, a psalm sing with dinner guests before or after an ordinary dinner (or being asked to join in on family worship after dinner) is fairly routine in the families of some churches. Certainly, if the home bible study does not conflict with prayer meeting attendance at whatever Presbyterian church you attend, I don't see why you could not keep going to the home bible study (if you find it useful, edifying, not likely to seduce you or your children to any of their errors, etc.). It will be important to keep in good communication with the elders of whatever Presbyterian church you join (this is important in anything anyway), so that they can keep a watch on your and your familiy's souls (I do not mean you need to tell them and ask them if you can do a certain activity; I just mean let them into your spiritual life in the course of you all getting to know each other). They might also have some other ideas of how you can keep in touch with your friends in the baptist church (my own idea would be: invite your friends for dinner!).
Frankly, it should be hard to leave a church.
You might consider attending special events (vacation Bible school?) or worship services that don't conflict with your own as a way to become familiar with nearby Presbyterian churches.
In answer to your earlier question, the OPC is fairly consistent in its teaching and worship. The PCA can have similar churches, or might shoot for a generalized evangelical atmosphere. Don't go near a PCUSA congregation. The few solid folks remaining have been mostly driven out. That's my experience with membership in these three denominations.
I've had the pleasure of visiting an ARP church across a number of years that was engaging and welcoming but not always sharp on the regulative principle.
You might consider attending special events (vacation Bible school?) or worship services that don't conflict with your own as a way to become familiar with nearby Presbyterian churches.
In answer to your earlier question, the OPC is fairly consistent in its teaching and worship. The PCA can have similar churches, or might shoot for a generalized evangelical atmosphere. Don't go near a PCUSA congregation. The few solid folks remaining have been mostly driven out. That's my experience with membership in these three denominations.
I've had the pleasure of visiting an ARP church across a number of years that was engaging and welcoming but not always sharp on the regulative principle.
mrhartley85
Puritan Board Freshman
What was your guys’ study like that God uses to bring you both onto the same page?
mrhartley85
Puritan Board Freshman
Great information! Thank you. That was a great idea about visiting events from local reformed Presbyterian churches during midweek.
mrhartley85
Puritan Board Freshman
This was really helpful. You’re absolutely right about going to their midweek bible study still. Those are the people we hang out with from our church anyways and would be the old real reason we’d be bummed to leave. That is a great idea. I’m going to seriously consider that. Thank you.
Solparvus
Puritan Board Senior
Sent PM to you.
Last edited:
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Ben:
It is good that confessional Baptists and Presbyterians agree in the way that you note above: all agree that it is our duty to rear our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and that it is God who, from first to last, is our only Savior.
Presbyterians, however, believe that those, all those, outwardly in the covenant of grace (either by profession of faith or by virtue of their having been born within it) ought to receive baptism as the sign and seal of that covenant.
The reason that I can consent to what you say with regard to "baptized or not" when it comes to our infants and young children is that I believe such are in the covenant of grace even if the sign of that covenant (baptism) is not applied to them. But I firmly believe that that sign should be applied to them in obedience to the Lord's command. Jordan has come to believe the same and this is not a matter of indifference. He needs to be in a place with those that believe and practice the same.
The church in which he presently resides does not believe and practice infant baptism. They should be respected in their beliefs and practices and he should not ask them to allow him to have his child(ren) baptized elsewhere. Nor should he ask a Presbyterian church to baptize his child(ren) while his family remains in a Baptist church. This is ecclesiastical anarchy, unfair to all the corporate bodies involved, as well as to his own family. One needs to be, in this regard, with those of like conviction. This is why we have Presbyterian and Baptist churches.
We rejoice that we can agree as we do, but we must not pretend as if these things don't matter. They do. You do not believe that you should baptize your children. You think it wrong. I understand and respect that, though I differ. I think that I should baptize my children and would think it wrong not to. This is why I am a Presbyterian and you are a Baptist.
Jordan needs to re-locate in due time to some church that will afford him the opportunity to do what he believes that he must: baptize his children, who are as much outward partakers of the covenant of grace by virtue of their birth as is anyone who professes his faith.
Peace,
Alan
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
Jordan, among the NAPARC churches you will *not* find much theological liberalism, as in churches that deny the inerrancy of the Bible or the deity of Christ, etc. All the NAPARC denominations are solid that way. Occasionally you may hear something in some of them that makes you wonder if there's a liberal influence sneaking in, but probably no more often than might happen in your current church.
What you will find within NAPARC is that some denominations and churches are more traditional than others or hold more firmly to Presbyterian/Reformed distinctives. This means some will have many mid-week activities and programs, as is common in the evangelical world today, while others will be more traditional and will have few or none. You will find differences, too, in how worship is conducted. Some are more traditional, and some will be more like what I imagine your current church to be.
Take it slowly, explore, find the right place for both you and your wife so that you don't have to uproot yet again. Follow Dr. Strange's advice, and realize that gently caring for your wife's spiritual needs should be one of your top considerations. I don't think your current church situation sounds like a crisis you must deal with hastily, since the gospel is being preached with godly shepherding.
mrhartley85
Puritan Board Freshman
Really great advice, brother. I’m blown away by all the godly wisdom on this site. Thank you my friend.
ccravens
Puritan Board Freshman
I would agree.
Jordan,
I would add something else for you to think about - various Presbyterian churches have varying distinctives. I would be very careful before thrusting your wife into a context that would seem very foreign to her. My humble advice would be to look for a Presbyterian church that requires as little transition as possible from your current context. Otherwise, my experience has been that your wife will almost immediately reject the change and stiffen up.
I would add something else for you to think about - various Presbyterian churches have varying distinctives. I would be very careful before thrusting your wife into a context that would seem very foreign to her. My humble advice would be to look for a Presbyterian church that requires as little transition as possible from your current context. Otherwise, my experience has been that your wife will almost immediately reject the change and stiffen up.
Doulos McKenzie
Puritan Board Freshman
It really depends on the Church.
JimmyH
Puritan Board Senior
I had been in a Baptist (SBC) church for years, and had a close relationship with the pastor, and many in the congregation. I attended Sunday worship as well as Bible study on Wednesday and Sunday evenings. I was not schooled on theology beyond the preaching I was exposed to and what I'd hear on the radio, though I had read a fair amount of Reverend Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
I was introduced to the Puritan Board forum somewhere along the line and began reading Reformed literature, and learning from the posts on this board. A few more years went by and I realized that the perspective that was being taught at my SB congregation was Arminian. This became very uncomfortable for me and I did discuss theology with the pastor, and others in the Bible study.
I found myself forcing myself not to comment during some of these studies, to avoid disrupting the class, or disrespecting the pastor. A friend on this board had a link to his blog and I went there and read an article on J.Gresham Machen and the founding of the OPC. I did a search and found that there was an OPC congregation a few miles from me.
After much soul searching I called the OPC pastor and told him my reasons, and of my desire to leave the SBC and come over to the OPC. He wanted to be sure of my motives and said he would check with my current pastor, that I was being honest, and said come over when you're ready.
I discussed it with my SBC pastor, it was painful for both of us, and I made the move. I continued to attend the Wednesday night study for some time, and attended special events where friends were participating.
My main point is, that the perspective I was getting in hearing the preaching at the SBC was contrary to what I had come to adhere to. So it was disturbing, and this sheep wasn't getting fed. So examine the theological perspective of the preaching where you are, and take that into consideration. I'm still friends with people from that congregation, and I've forged new relationships where I am now. For me it has been a very positive move.
I was introduced to the Puritan Board forum somewhere along the line and began reading Reformed literature, and learning from the posts on this board. A few more years went by and I realized that the perspective that was being taught at my SB congregation was Arminian. This became very uncomfortable for me and I did discuss theology with the pastor, and others in the Bible study.
I found myself forcing myself not to comment during some of these studies, to avoid disrupting the class, or disrespecting the pastor. A friend on this board had a link to his blog and I went there and read an article on J.Gresham Machen and the founding of the OPC. I did a search and found that there was an OPC congregation a few miles from me.
After much soul searching I called the OPC pastor and told him my reasons, and of my desire to leave the SBC and come over to the OPC. He wanted to be sure of my motives and said he would check with my current pastor, that I was being honest, and said come over when you're ready.
I discussed it with my SBC pastor, it was painful for both of us, and I made the move. I continued to attend the Wednesday night study for some time, and attended special events where friends were participating.
My main point is, that the perspective I was getting in hearing the preaching at the SBC was contrary to what I had come to adhere to. So it was disturbing, and this sheep wasn't getting fed. So examine the theological perspective of the preaching where you are, and take that into consideration. I'm still friends with people from that congregation, and I've forged new relationships where I am now. For me it has been a very positive move.
Steve Curtis
Puritan Board Senior
Gentle reminder: only paedobaptists are allowed to reply in this forum.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
I don't disagree with you at all that to go against conscience is neither right nor safe--the OP should prayerfully seek a church that will not abuse his conscience. I wished only to caution him that baptizing the children would not effect any change at all in them--he spoke of "different presuppositions".
But I see that an admonition has just cropped up--as a Baptist I'm not allowed to post in this forum. So, with apologies, I'll withdraw--I had not seen that this was a peado-answers-only thread.
Grace and peace to you all.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
At the outset let me admit that I haven't read any of the replies to the OP. I'm sure that some excellent advice has been given... for me, my reply hinges upon the OP's use of the words "... I have been recently convinced about Westminster covenant theology…”
First, welcome to the team! Second… go slow. Make sure your “recent convincing” is a reflection of being really convinced. Avoid hasty actions so you don’t seem like a waffler. Sounds like you’re in a good church and your wife is willing to follow your lead. Don’t squander that or endanger your relationship – and yes, if you pull her out of a church she loves, with relationships that matter, and put her in a church that ends up being cold and devoid of those relationships, yes, she will predictably become resentful – before you yourself are sure you’re sure. I recommend easing in by visiting solid paedo churches in your area, and encourage her to develop relationships with women in those churches, etc: relationships really matter.
Whatever you do… AVOID saying something along the lines of, “WOMAN! I AM THE HEAD OF THE HOUSE, AND IF I SAY WE’RE BAPTIZING OUR CHILDREN, THEN WE’RE BAPTIZING OUR CHILDREN!”
Remember: baptism is important, but it isn’t all important… it is an important thing to consider, but it isn’t the only thing to consider.
Several years ago, when I was an army chaplain, we were stationed in a locale in which my wife had numerous friends who attended a Calvinistic-evangelical church. Housing was spread out over a huge geographic area and she desperately wanted us to live close enough that we attend there whenever I wasn’t preaching in the chapel. But I, being me, said that it was ESSENTIAL that we attend a truly Reformed church… so I had us obtain housing that was near a truly Reformed church, which meant we were nearly an hour from her friends… my wife dutifully submitted… but none of the ladies at that church were interested in relationship (and my kids didn’t have friends either), but by golly, we were in a church that baptized babies… Long story short, my wife felt isolated and alone, and it was the darkest most depressed season of her life thus far. I will NEVER make that mistake again of being so zealous for a secondary doctrine that I let it override everything else.
So, go slow, don’t hastily spend the “trust equity” your wife has for your judgment, and remember that your family’s spiritual well-being is something you are required to look after, but it isn’t the only aspect of their well-being you are required to look after!
First, welcome to the team! Second… go slow. Make sure your “recent convincing” is a reflection of being really convinced. Avoid hasty actions so you don’t seem like a waffler. Sounds like you’re in a good church and your wife is willing to follow your lead. Don’t squander that or endanger your relationship – and yes, if you pull her out of a church she loves, with relationships that matter, and put her in a church that ends up being cold and devoid of those relationships, yes, she will predictably become resentful – before you yourself are sure you’re sure. I recommend easing in by visiting solid paedo churches in your area, and encourage her to develop relationships with women in those churches, etc: relationships really matter.
Whatever you do… AVOID saying something along the lines of, “WOMAN! I AM THE HEAD OF THE HOUSE, AND IF I SAY WE’RE BAPTIZING OUR CHILDREN, THEN WE’RE BAPTIZING OUR CHILDREN!”
Remember: baptism is important, but it isn’t all important… it is an important thing to consider, but it isn’t the only thing to consider.
Several years ago, when I was an army chaplain, we were stationed in a locale in which my wife had numerous friends who attended a Calvinistic-evangelical church. Housing was spread out over a huge geographic area and she desperately wanted us to live close enough that we attend there whenever I wasn’t preaching in the chapel. But I, being me, said that it was ESSENTIAL that we attend a truly Reformed church… so I had us obtain housing that was near a truly Reformed church, which meant we were nearly an hour from her friends… my wife dutifully submitted… but none of the ladies at that church were interested in relationship (and my kids didn’t have friends either), but by golly, we were in a church that baptized babies… Long story short, my wife felt isolated and alone, and it was the darkest most depressed season of her life thus far. I will NEVER make that mistake again of being so zealous for a secondary doctrine that I let it override everything else.
So, go slow, don’t hastily spend the “trust equity” your wife has for your judgment, and remember that your family’s spiritual well-being is something you are required to look after, but it isn’t the only aspect of their well-being you are required to look after!
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Jordan:
I want to underline the counsel of Jack, Fred, and Ben. It is all sound and worth heeding.
I answered as I did about the importance of baptism because that was what you were asking, coupled with what appeared to be a clear sensitivity to your wife, especially, and recognizing the difficulties of "uprooting." You are to be commended for that and these men all address that in different ways.
I think that Fred is right: you want to be careful about where you go next (not in terms of liberalism, to which you seem alert, but something overly narrow). And, as Ben noted, you want to be careful about going from rich fellowship to that which is comparatively impoverished (although the issue didn't involve his children being unbaptized, which makes things a bit different).
And though I had more to say to Ben Z., it seems unfair to do so now since he can't reply here. I will say just this about the above quote: I do believe that some different presuppositions are often operative between the two and that baptizing children does mean something to and for them. But I shall desist from further comments.
Peace,
Alan
I want to underline the counsel of Jack, Fred, and Ben. It is all sound and worth heeding.
I answered as I did about the importance of baptism because that was what you were asking, coupled with what appeared to be a clear sensitivity to your wife, especially, and recognizing the difficulties of "uprooting." You are to be commended for that and these men all address that in different ways.
I think that Fred is right: you want to be careful about where you go next (not in terms of liberalism, to which you seem alert, but something overly narrow). And, as Ben noted, you want to be careful about going from rich fellowship to that which is comparatively impoverished (although the issue didn't involve his children being unbaptized, which makes things a bit different).
And though I had more to say to Ben Z., it seems unfair to do so now since he can't reply here. I will say just this about the above quote: I do believe that some different presuppositions are often operative between the two and that baptizing children does mean something to and for them. But I shall desist from further comments.
Peace,
Alan
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
If some of the smaller confessional Presbyterian denominations would be too big a leap for you and your family just now, it appears that there are a fair lot of conservative Anglican churches in your area (belonging to the Anglican Church of North America). It is just a suggestion, but it might be one worth following up. The bottom line is that you have to go somewhere that will baptise your children. I hope that you find somewhere suitable soon.
- Status
