I need to rant: I went to an emergent church yesterday.
- Thread starter BobVigneault
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BobVigneault
Bawberator
I know what you mean Colleen. I heard some ladies from my old church giggling as they were getting ready to go to one of her barftastic events. I just about wretched listening to the Meyer phrases they were parroting. I'm still on the prayer chain and when one of the 'meyerettes' request a prayer it is usually so frivolous or makes God sound like he needs all the help we can give Him. Ugh!
BobVigneault
Bawberator
You're right Gerry, I need to go to bed. G'night friends. (63 REPLIES! Tehehehehe!)
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Just have to throw out the actual comparison between a MK meeting and Joycie meeting...
The "God wants you to have that" thought. Stick a picture of the car you want on your bathroom mirror and you will get it. Same with MK...you are supposed to hang up posters of the suit and car you are aiming for...sigh!
BTW, I need to place an order...anyone need a facial?
The "God wants you to have that" thought. Stick a picture of the car you want on your bathroom mirror and you will get it. Same with MK...you are supposed to hang up posters of the suit and car you are aiming for...sigh!
BTW, I need to place an order...anyone need a facial?
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by BobVigneault
Man, I sit and wrestle and contemplate what my next thread will be. As I type it out I think, "Maybe this will stir up a great response, maybe hit that '30 reply' mark. Alas, my best attempts end with 2 or 3 replies and then go to the archives to frag into oblivion.
Now I start a thread complaining about a lousy church I went to and I get 55 replies. FIFTY-FIVE!!!! Wooooohooooo!
I've decided I'm going to go to a raunchy stink-fest of a church every week from now on just so I can come back here and get the ego-biscuits from the people I need them from the most. This is so great!
Hey, can anyone tell me how to get to Ron Parley's World Harvest Church? Where's TD Jakes gonna be this weekend? Ooh, ooh, JOYCE MEYER is coming to a town near me! YESSSSSSSSSS! I am so there.
Bob,
Come down here to Central Louisiana and I can point you in the direction of enough churches worthy of rants at least as good as this one that you'll have ego biscuits for months. Who knows, could even gather enough material to write a book.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Thanks for the offer Chris but that book has already been written, it's called 'Judges'. The theme: and each one did what he thought was right in his own eyes while the priesthood failed. But if I'm ever near Pineville, I would love to swap howdies with you. 
PS, did you ever see 'Best In Show', is that the same Pineville? I love that movie. I haven't seen it in church yet though.
PS, did you ever see 'Best In Show', is that the same Pineville? I love that movie. I haven't seen it in church yet though.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
yes, when I said "the O.P." I meant the original post.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by BobVigneault
Thanks for the offer Chris but that book has already been written, it's called 'Judges'. The theme: and each one did what he thought was right in his own eyes while the priesthood failed. But if I'm ever near Pineville, I would love to swap howdies with you.
PS, did you ever see 'Best In Show', is that the same Pineville? I love that movie. I haven't seen it in church yet though.
I haven't seen it, I doubt it's the same but you never know. I haven't seen any movies in church lately either.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
One can mention Judges and the theme about everyone doing what is right in their own eyes, but then that could be pointed back to everyone on here. How do you know that you believe correctly and aren't just doing what is right in your own eyes? I ask this with full respect but in all seriousness.
Brian,
How do you know that your firm conviction on anything is correct belief, and you aren't just self-assured, i.e. "right in your own eyes"?
Pick a moral issue, any issue. If you say "oh, I know hmosx is evil," and some one says "why?" and you say "because the Bible says so," and they say "How do you know that's not just your interpretation," how should you respond?
Worship is a moral issue. The 2nd of the 10 commandments proves it. If God has spoken on the issue, then we are obligated to find out what he's said, everything he's said, and put all the parts of it that have present relevance into practice. The fact that many folks today think that basically anything that pops into their head qualifies as a sanctified expression of corporate worship just turns the collective worship of the entire Christian community into a free-for-all. Where is the disciplined army of Christ marshalled to do spiritual warfare, assembled to listen to their marching orders, and drilling on the pavement?
The fact that someone raising a question about the appropriateness of a single church's behavior (like in the O.P.) should be immediatley challenged just tells me that apart from a few deliberate, disciplined, knowledgable churches, there is a whole host of people gathering together for a meelee, a rumble, a riot, and unprepared for serious, spiritual worship.
Before this series of posts, had you ever considered that we might possibly be obligated to check the Word of God for warrant for each and everything we present to God as service? And yet, this is the historic position of the Reformation, Puritan-minded church. Is the idea offensive, or merely unusual?
Blessings on your reflections.
How do you know that your firm conviction on anything is correct belief, and you aren't just self-assured, i.e. "right in your own eyes"?
Pick a moral issue, any issue. If you say "oh, I know hmosx is evil," and some one says "why?" and you say "because the Bible says so," and they say "How do you know that's not just your interpretation," how should you respond?
Worship is a moral issue. The 2nd of the 10 commandments proves it. If God has spoken on the issue, then we are obligated to find out what he's said, everything he's said, and put all the parts of it that have present relevance into practice. The fact that many folks today think that basically anything that pops into their head qualifies as a sanctified expression of corporate worship just turns the collective worship of the entire Christian community into a free-for-all. Where is the disciplined army of Christ marshalled to do spiritual warfare, assembled to listen to their marching orders, and drilling on the pavement?
The fact that someone raising a question about the appropriateness of a single church's behavior (like in the O.P.) should be immediatley challenged just tells me that apart from a few deliberate, disciplined, knowledgable churches, there is a whole host of people gathering together for a meelee, a rumble, a riot, and unprepared for serious, spiritual worship.
Before this series of posts, had you ever considered that we might possibly be obligated to check the Word of God for warrant for each and everything we present to God as service? And yet, this is the historic position of the Reformation, Puritan-minded church. Is the idea offensive, or merely unusual?
Blessings on your reflections.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Hey Bruce, I agree with you. I have to look to what Scripture says in order to know...otherwise I would just be doing what is right in my own eyes.
Yes, the Bible prescribes that we worship decently and in order but it doesn't specifically order everything that we "can" do. For instance it may not say you can or can't use a harmonica but that doesn't mean that we can't use a harmonica in worship. In the case of the O.P. I don't see where in the Bible that only ordained ministers can serve the Lord's Supper. I don't see where people can't thank the Lord for the Resurrection. As of this moment, I truly believe the O.P. was more about personal preference than solid theology. And I don't mind that.
You said: "Before this series of posts, had you ever considered that we might possibly be obligated to check the Word of God for warrant for each and everything we present to God as service? And yet, this is the historic position of the Reformation, Puritan-minded church. Is the idea offensive, or merely unusual?"
Yes, I have. See my above paragraph. The idea isn't offensive or unusual. But the judgment against what others feel is ok and wasn't necessarily wrong (and there was no rumble, melee, etc.) is what I find offensive. Where does the Bible say that one cannot "toast" to the Resurrection and thank Jesus? I don't personally "toast" to the Resurrection but I don't see the problem. It's a little odd to me but hardly heretical. I put it on the level of someone making a birthday cake and singing happy birthday to Jesus. Not something I would do, but not my business to say they are wrong.
Yes, the Bible prescribes that we worship decently and in order but it doesn't specifically order everything that we "can" do. For instance it may not say you can or can't use a harmonica but that doesn't mean that we can't use a harmonica in worship. In the case of the O.P. I don't see where in the Bible that only ordained ministers can serve the Lord's Supper. I don't see where people can't thank the Lord for the Resurrection. As of this moment, I truly believe the O.P. was more about personal preference than solid theology. And I don't mind that.
You said: "Before this series of posts, had you ever considered that we might possibly be obligated to check the Word of God for warrant for each and everything we present to God as service? And yet, this is the historic position of the Reformation, Puritan-minded church. Is the idea offensive, or merely unusual?"
Yes, I have. See my above paragraph. The idea isn't offensive or unusual. But the judgment against what others feel is ok and wasn't necessarily wrong (and there was no rumble, melee, etc.) is what I find offensive. Where does the Bible say that one cannot "toast" to the Resurrection and thank Jesus? I don't personally "toast" to the Resurrection but I don't see the problem. It's a little odd to me but hardly heretical. I put it on the level of someone making a birthday cake and singing happy birthday to Jesus. Not something I would do, but not my business to say they are wrong.
Cuirassier
Puritan Board Freshman
Hello Brian,
To compare the people of the Judges period and people who are actively, striving to adhere to God's word is a faulty comparison.
Let's look at the people of Israel during the times of the Judges. Were they striving to follow God's commandment, with the occasional disagreement among brethren? No. The account God gives is a picture of continuous, deliberate rebellion and idolatry. See ch 2.2, 2.10-11, 3.5, 6.1, 8.33 .... the list continues.
Yours is a very fundamental question - how do you answer me if I were to tell you I honestly believe that there are only 2 persons in the Trinity, or that Jesus did commit the occasional sin, or that He never really died, but rather "swooned" for 3 days? You would say, "No-that is heresy. God's word teaches .... x, y, and z." And you be correct in doing so.
So, how do we know if what we are doing is Biblical or is simply what is right in our own mind? Well, does it square with God's word? If you see someone claiming to be a Christian and all the time denying the word of God, ignoring the commands of Christ, and actively pursuing debauchery and sin - what would you conclude? You'd probably measure their actions by I John 1.6-7.
You would have to conclude that is a different category of people than those here who, notwithstanding the minor errors and misunderstandings that saved sinners will invariably have, actively profess Christ, are seeking to espouse the teaching of Scripture, and reflect the light of the Gospel to those around them.
Surely you would have to agree that differences in theological opinion is very different than doing whatever you feel like!
In Him,
dl
ps: Sorry Brian, Bruce, et al - I was posting the same time as Bruce - my reply may be repeptitive, but I had given it a fair bit of thought, and didn't want to simply delete it.
[Edited on 4-19-2006 by Cuirassier]
[Edited on 4-19-2006 by Cuirassier]
To compare the people of the Judges period and people who are actively, striving to adhere to God's word is a faulty comparison.
Let's look at the people of Israel during the times of the Judges. Were they striving to follow God's commandment, with the occasional disagreement among brethren? No. The account God gives is a picture of continuous, deliberate rebellion and idolatry. See ch 2.2, 2.10-11, 3.5, 6.1, 8.33 .... the list continues.
Yours is a very fundamental question - how do you answer me if I were to tell you I honestly believe that there are only 2 persons in the Trinity, or that Jesus did commit the occasional sin, or that He never really died, but rather "swooned" for 3 days? You would say, "No-that is heresy. God's word teaches .... x, y, and z." And you be correct in doing so.
So, how do we know if what we are doing is Biblical or is simply what is right in our own mind? Well, does it square with God's word? If you see someone claiming to be a Christian and all the time denying the word of God, ignoring the commands of Christ, and actively pursuing debauchery and sin - what would you conclude? You'd probably measure their actions by I John 1.6-7.
You would have to conclude that is a different category of people than those here who, notwithstanding the minor errors and misunderstandings that saved sinners will invariably have, actively profess Christ, are seeking to espouse the teaching of Scripture, and reflect the light of the Gospel to those around them.
Surely you would have to agree that differences in theological opinion is very different than doing whatever you feel like!
In Him,
dl
ps: Sorry Brian, Bruce, et al - I was posting the same time as Bruce - my reply may be repeptitive, but I had given it a fair bit of thought, and didn't want to simply delete it.
[Edited on 4-19-2006 by Cuirassier]
[Edited on 4-19-2006 by Cuirassier]
turmeric
Megerator
Originally posted by BobVigneault
Now I start a thread complaining about a lousy church I went to and I get 55 replies. FIFTY-FIVE!!!! Wooooohooooo!
I've decided I'm going to go to a raunchy stink-fest of a church every week from now on just so I can come back here and get the ego-biscuits from the people I need them from the most. This is so great!
Hey, can anyone tell me how to get to Ron Parley's World Harvest Church? Where's TD Jakes gonna be this weekend? Ooh, ooh, JOYCE MEYER is coming to a town near me! YESSSSSSSSSS! I am so there.
Yes, Bob, the people have "spoken" or is that "barfed"! It's time for a Christian reality show. We'll call it "I Can't Believe It's Church!" You can go to a stinker every week and film the disgusting mess!
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
"Surely you would have to agree that differences in theological opinion is very different than doing whatever you feel like!"
Of course. I don't know why you would believe I think any differently. All I was saying that people quoted Judges, that every man did that which was right in his own eyes; and I said maybe they could be doing it to. After all, we all misinterpret something sometimes. Sorry if I offended you.
Of course. I don't know why you would believe I think any differently. All I was saying that people quoted Judges, that every man did that which was right in his own eyes; and I said maybe they could be doing it to. After all, we all misinterpret something sometimes. Sorry if I offended you.
Cuirassier
Puritan Board Freshman
Brian
I didn't at all feel you were offending me ...
My sole point was that if we're drawing a comparison between A and B, there must be at least a partial set of overlapping similarities in the attributes of A and B in order for the comparison to make sense.
For that reason, I was having a hard time seeing the basis of comparison between the serial backsliding Israelites and the folks (including you and I) here on the PB. Perhaps I'm missing something ....
dl
[Edited on 4-20-2006 by Cuirassier]
[Edited on 4-20-2006 by Cuirassier]
I didn't at all feel you were offending me ...
My sole point was that if we're drawing a comparison between A and B, there must be at least a partial set of overlapping similarities in the attributes of A and B in order for the comparison to make sense.
For that reason, I was having a hard time seeing the basis of comparison between the serial backsliding Israelites and the folks (including you and I) here on the PB. Perhaps I'm missing something ....
dl
[Edited on 4-20-2006 by Cuirassier]
[Edited on 4-20-2006 by Cuirassier]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
No problem Daniel. I'm glad that I didn't offend you and I see what you are saying.
lwadkins
Puritan Board Junior
I had to weigh in on this subject; it is close to my heart. So much of inappropriate worship comes about due to confusion between corporate worship and personal worship. Many want to bring elements of personal worship into corporate worship, but some personal elements are inappropriate in the context of corporate worship. God has told us in His Word how important corporate worship is, and how we should worship Him.
In their zeal to evangelize many churches sacrifice the focus on worship, in the gathering of saints on the Lord's Day, to focus on their vision of evangelizing those who come, making it more of an evangelistic outreach then a worship service. Also those "evangelistic outreaches" focus on creating a "feeling" in those present to cause them to desire Christ. This stems from our "stiff necked" un-submissive humanness. Instead of submitting to God we insist we can do it better.
Churches, having been at one point deserted by men, have now become feminized. Gone is any focus on manly attributes exhibited by Christ and only "feelings" matter. When looking at Christ we see him exhibit strength, honor, duty, chivalry, yet these are attributes in disrepute in most evangelical churches today. Seldom will you hear hymns in church such as "Onward Christian Soldiers" or "œA Mighty Fortress is Our God."
As we slide further and further down this slippery slope of emotion as the determining factor in how we do things, particularly in worship, there is a logical progression that can be extrapolated with a little thought, and we are seeing many churches well along in that progression.
The idea of a personal relationship with God has also been corrupted to the point that many believe that reading the Bible and interpreting it is accomplished by feeling what the Scriptures are saying to you. Their view of the Holy Spirit is just that, a feeling that comes over them, as they are reading scripture that "feeling" gives them an understanding that none have had before. I was told by a teacher in our school the other day how she counseled a youth she was teaching, in the art of "Lucky Dipping." (For those unaware of the practice, it is opening the Bible randomly and reading a verse with the view that God led you to the passage you needed to hear)
So how is it that our churches have come to this point? Well, I believe that most churches lack godly leadership, when it becomes about feelings rather than principle how can you insist that your feeling is more valid than someone else´s. Those who are principled also fear to speak out. No one wants to be savaged by the "tolerance" crowd who are guided by feelings rather than principle.
In short, if you use solid hermeneutics and do your best to set aside your biases study the thought of those who came before, you can arrive at truth; but you will be disputed and savaged by those ruled by emotion and human ideas of "fairness", "love", justice", etc. God has even told us in his word what we are, so we should know what to watch for in ourselves that will attempt to distort truth.
The leadership of today´s churches is readily visible in the gatherings they have to set their policies, also in news reports and radio programs etc. How many are standing on principle? How many are twisting and distorting Scripture to bring it in line with their feelings and/or feelings of loyalty for a particular teacher or teaching? How much solid scholarship is rejected because it came from the past, and those teaching today feel they are far more erudite than those who lived and studied in the ignorant and superstitious past?
Where are those men and women who are willing to submit to God and set aside their own desires and wishes, to follow Christ? The men willing to set aside their desire for their own glory and humbly lead with strength, duty, honor, chivalry and love for Christ; the women willing to set aside their desire for their own glory and humbly nurture others and the church with the great capacity for love that God has given them. The men willing to lead, the women willing to help, the two being one, committed to God's glory, Christ, and the visible church. They are out there, but I think we must conclude that they are few.
In their zeal to evangelize many churches sacrifice the focus on worship, in the gathering of saints on the Lord's Day, to focus on their vision of evangelizing those who come, making it more of an evangelistic outreach then a worship service. Also those "evangelistic outreaches" focus on creating a "feeling" in those present to cause them to desire Christ. This stems from our "stiff necked" un-submissive humanness. Instead of submitting to God we insist we can do it better.
Churches, having been at one point deserted by men, have now become feminized. Gone is any focus on manly attributes exhibited by Christ and only "feelings" matter. When looking at Christ we see him exhibit strength, honor, duty, chivalry, yet these are attributes in disrepute in most evangelical churches today. Seldom will you hear hymns in church such as "Onward Christian Soldiers" or "œA Mighty Fortress is Our God."
As we slide further and further down this slippery slope of emotion as the determining factor in how we do things, particularly in worship, there is a logical progression that can be extrapolated with a little thought, and we are seeing many churches well along in that progression.
The idea of a personal relationship with God has also been corrupted to the point that many believe that reading the Bible and interpreting it is accomplished by feeling what the Scriptures are saying to you. Their view of the Holy Spirit is just that, a feeling that comes over them, as they are reading scripture that "feeling" gives them an understanding that none have had before. I was told by a teacher in our school the other day how she counseled a youth she was teaching, in the art of "Lucky Dipping." (For those unaware of the practice, it is opening the Bible randomly and reading a verse with the view that God led you to the passage you needed to hear)
So how is it that our churches have come to this point? Well, I believe that most churches lack godly leadership, when it becomes about feelings rather than principle how can you insist that your feeling is more valid than someone else´s. Those who are principled also fear to speak out. No one wants to be savaged by the "tolerance" crowd who are guided by feelings rather than principle.
In short, if you use solid hermeneutics and do your best to set aside your biases study the thought of those who came before, you can arrive at truth; but you will be disputed and savaged by those ruled by emotion and human ideas of "fairness", "love", justice", etc. God has even told us in his word what we are, so we should know what to watch for in ourselves that will attempt to distort truth.
The leadership of today´s churches is readily visible in the gatherings they have to set their policies, also in news reports and radio programs etc. How many are standing on principle? How many are twisting and distorting Scripture to bring it in line with their feelings and/or feelings of loyalty for a particular teacher or teaching? How much solid scholarship is rejected because it came from the past, and those teaching today feel they are far more erudite than those who lived and studied in the ignorant and superstitious past?
Where are those men and women who are willing to submit to God and set aside their own desires and wishes, to follow Christ? The men willing to set aside their desire for their own glory and humbly lead with strength, duty, honor, chivalry and love for Christ; the women willing to set aside their desire for their own glory and humbly nurture others and the church with the great capacity for love that God has given them. The men willing to lead, the women willing to help, the two being one, committed to God's glory, Christ, and the visible church. They are out there, but I think we must conclude that they are few.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Amen and preach it Lon. I'm am with you all the way on this one. That was a terrific expression. Thank you.
weinhold
Puritan Board Freshman
Brothers and Sisters,
Again I find myself being reminded of stories in which the Holy Spirit has ministered to me as I read this board. Thank you for helping me bring these to mind. I teach at a Christian school, and before every school year our entire upper school attends either a mission trip or a community-building retreat. Our most recent trip was to Colorado for a retreat. After the trip was over, one of our Catholic students shared with me his experience during our worship time. I had asked him how he felt when we served communion during one of the worship times. He told me that although he would not have felt comfortable taking communion at a local Protestant church, he was able to partake of the elements during our school retreat because he was a part of that community and we were like family.
As he shared his heart with me, I felt extremely privileged and humbled at his surprisingly mature understanding of the Christian community, and his ability to see real worship in an unfamiliar context. Ultimately, (and whether he knows it or not) I think my student has a healthy view of worship that is eschatologically driven; he knows that we will one day worship together for eternity. Though denominational distinctives are important in a fallen world, I'm glad that at least one high schooler has been able to exemplify Christ-likeness to me through his gracious and humble understanding of worship in Christ's Church.
Again I find myself being reminded of stories in which the Holy Spirit has ministered to me as I read this board. Thank you for helping me bring these to mind. I teach at a Christian school, and before every school year our entire upper school attends either a mission trip or a community-building retreat. Our most recent trip was to Colorado for a retreat. After the trip was over, one of our Catholic students shared with me his experience during our worship time. I had asked him how he felt when we served communion during one of the worship times. He told me that although he would not have felt comfortable taking communion at a local Protestant church, he was able to partake of the elements during our school retreat because he was a part of that community and we were like family.
As he shared his heart with me, I felt extremely privileged and humbled at his surprisingly mature understanding of the Christian community, and his ability to see real worship in an unfamiliar context. Ultimately, (and whether he knows it or not) I think my student has a healthy view of worship that is eschatologically driven; he knows that we will one day worship together for eternity. Though denominational distinctives are important in a fallen world, I'm glad that at least one high schooler has been able to exemplify Christ-likeness to me through his gracious and humble understanding of worship in Christ's Church.
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