I’m gonna say it...

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself' started by Jeremiah Jasso, Dec 11, 2019.

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  1. Jeremiah Jasso

    Jeremiah Jasso Puritan Board Freshman

    I’m new here and to get the party started I decided I’d just say it....

    John Calvin was postmillennial.
  2. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Welcome. Is that a pocketwatch?

    You'd best get your signature sorted before one of the moderators comes for you!
  3. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Darn it, to thought you were going to say Premil!
  4. Rutherglen1794

    Rutherglen1794 Puritan Board Junior

    You’re buying a Kindle? Oh. No?

  5. C. M. Sheffield

    C. M. Sheffield Puritan Board Senior

    Kim Riddlebarger's Answer:

    I would caution that we not try and put Calvin in any of the modern eschatological categories. As Richard Muller points out, Calvin’s eschatology is essentially pastoral and non-speculative [Richard Muller, The Unaccommodated Calvin: Studies in the Foundation of the Federal Tradition (New York: Oxford University press, 2000), 171]. Calvin is very difficult to pin down on a number of these points because he wrote before many of our modern categories were clearly defined.

    Take for example, the millennial question, “A” “Pre” or “Post.” As Berkhof admits, amillennialism may be the historical position of the church since the days of the apostles, but the term itself was not used until early in the twentieth century (Berkhof, Systematic Theology, 708). If we were to ask Calvin about his millennial views he would probably say millennarianism in any form is the view of fanatics. Calvin would have known only two options, non-millennarianism or chiliasm. Since amillennarians are technically postmillennial (Christ returns after the thousand years of Revelation 20), Calvin, I think would simply affirm he was a non-millennarian and argue something like an optimistic amillennial view, especially given his confidence in the spread of the gospel.

    What can we say about Calvin’s eschatology?

    1). He saw the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the key point in history (cf. Calvin’s commentaries on John 12:31 and Genesis 17:7).

    2). Since he believed that God’s decree lies at the foundation of human history, therefore he held to a linear view of history and a final judgment.

    3). Based on his comments on John 5:25 and Isaiah 26:19, he would have likely held that the first resurrection (cf. Revelation 20:4-5) was the conversion of the believer.

    4). In his comments on Matthew 24:27, Calvin believes Christ’s coming as lightening is a reference to the spread of the gospel, which means that this prophecy is already fulfilled, and which in turn guarantees the second coming. Christ’s coming brings the fulfilled kingdom–and herein lies Calvin’s objection to the chiliasts (millennarians), who do not see this kingdom as come until after an earthly millennium has transpired after Christ’s return.

    5). Along with the kingdom of God, comes the kingdom of Antichrist (cf. Calvin’s Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Calvin sees the continuing spread of the kingdom along with a protracted conflict upon the earth with the kingdom of Antichrist. One clear manifestation is found in the papacy, but can also be seen in antichristian forces such as Islam. In an important passage from the Institutes, Calvin writes,

    However, when we categorically deny to the papists the title of the church, we do not for this reason impugn the existence of churches among them. Rather, we are only contending about the true and lawful constitution of the church, required in the communion not only of the sacraments (which are the signs of profession) but also especially of doctrine, Daniel (Daniel 9:27) and Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:4) foretold that Antichrist would sit in the Temple of God. With us, it is the Roman pontiff we make the leader and standard bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom. The fact that his seat is placed in the Temple of God signifies that his reign was not to be such as to wipe out either the name of Christ or of the church (Institutes IV.ii.12).

    This means Calvin was not postmillennial--in the sense of modern postmillennarians who believe that the earth will be effectively Christianized. Calvin’s confidence was in the gospel, not the transformation of culture.

    6). Calvin wisely warns us not “to worry more than the Lord over details of time” (Commentary on Matthew 24:29, 36).​
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  6. JennyGeddes

    JennyGeddes Puritan Board Freshman

    Welcome to the board!
  7. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Welcome Jeremiah.
    Postmil is a loaded term that could include Optimistic Amil.

    Please make a signature for your posts per the rules.
  8. Seeking_Thy_Kingdom

    Seeking_Thy_Kingdom Puritan Board Freshman

    Off with a bang! Welcome.
  9. kainos01

    kainos01 Puritan Board Senior

    Gotta win the prize for longest reply in an introduction thread...

    Oh, and - welcome, Jeremiah! Looks like you'll fit right in.
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  10. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Welcome. Come right out swinging! I like it.
  11. bookslover

    bookslover Puritan Board Doctor

    So, basically, Calvin was "panmillennial" - trust God to know what He's doing, everything's going to pan out in the end.
  12. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    In before the standard comebacks:
  13. G

    G Puritan Board Junior

    I tend to agree that we need all three..... pre-meals, a-meals, and post-meals alike. Don’t ask a hobbit for their versions of acceptable meals and the proper timing of the coming mealinium as they are vast in number and seemingly unending is variances.

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  14. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritanboard Commissioner

    John Calvin's personal opinions do not have confessional status. Sorry to break the hearts of Reformed Romantics.
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  15. G

    G Puritan Board Junior

  16. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    PB now has its very own comedian, welcome!
  17. Ryan&Amber2013

    Ryan&Amber2013 Puritan Board Junior

    I'm watching the Hobbit right now.
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  18. G

    G Puritan Board Junior

    So that means you hold to a-meal?:detective:
  19. Stephen L Smith

    Stephen L Smith Moderator Staff Member

    The movie is practically over so now it is a post-meal ;);)
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  20. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Graduate

    You live in Middle Earth, don't you?
  21. Stephen L Smith

    Stephen L Smith Moderator Staff Member

    Indeed. And I live not far from Hobbiton :)
  22. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Calvin? John Calvin? Who is John Calvin anyway? Never heard of him.

    Welcome Jeremiah.
  23. Jeremiah Jasso

    Jeremiah Jasso Puritan Board Freshman

    How does one do that?
  24. Jeremiah Jasso

    Jeremiah Jasso Puritan Board Freshman

    Wow. That was very interesting, thanks! Although I’d like to present some Calvin quotes which seem to go against Kim’s suggestion that “Calvin’s confidence.... was into in the transformation of the culture,” (which I see to be a false dichotomy and I think so would Calvin).

    “Commenting upon the Isaiah 65:17 prophecy of God’s creating new heavens and a new earth: “By these metaphors he promises a remarkable change of affairs; . . . but the greatest of such a blessing, which was to be manifested at the coming of Christ, could not be described in any other way. Nor does he mean only the first coming, but the whole reign, which must be extended as far as to the last coming. . . . Thus the world is (so to speak) renewed by Christ . . . and even now we are in the progress and accomplishment of it. . . . The Prophet has in his eye the whole reign of Christ, down to its final close, which is also called ‘the day of renovation and restoration.’ (Acts iii.21)”

    “Let believers, therefore, be of good courage, and not give up hope, until everything that must precede the resurrection be accomplished.” [Commentary on 1Cor15]

    Of course I could provide more quotes but I think that puts forth what I’m trying to say. That is - Calvin had a great hope.
  25. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

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  26. jnslance

    jnslance Puritan Board Freshman

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