Featured How Would Primitive Baptists Interpret Romans 3-5?

Discussion in 'Exegetical Forum' started by Alexander, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Alexander

    Alexander Puritan Board Freshman

    How would a Primitive Baptist understand Romans 3-5 in the discussion of justification by faith alone. Also, maybe even Ephesians 2:8 Thanks !
     
  2. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Junior

    Primitive Baptists {edited from PM} see God already has eternally justified His elect in christ, so to them, when obe receives Jesus through faith in this life, will experience the blessings of those now saved, but they also see all elect as being given eternal life in heaven, regardless if receiving Jesus in this lifetime.
     
  3. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    That sounds a little like the doctrine of eternal justification which many of us here deny.
    [Moderator]
    Please note that, in accordance with the board rules, this is not a place to advocate eternal justification, as it is out of accord with the governing standards of the PB. While we certainly do not want to stifle conversation on the topic, the standards clearly state that a person is not actually justified until believing: this is incompatible with a collapse of the distinction between the decree of justification and justification itself, and also with a notion that faith merely realizes justification already possessed. In the Westminster Formulae there is an actual, declarative justification in time.
    [Moderator]
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  4. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    The question is: What do the Primitive Baptists believe on this passage?

    You may not be able to explain what they believe without expressing the idea of Eternal Justification.

    Expressing the view isn't the same as advocating the view.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2017
  5. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Junior

    I was not advocating for their position of eternal Justification, as was just answering the question on what their theology and beliefs are regarding this topic.
     
  6. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Junior

    Yes, as I was just answering the question on how they view Justification from their perspective.
     
  7. yeutter

    yeutter Puritan Board Junior

    My experience is; that most Primitive Baptist Elders do not have any formal theological training. Most will respond to questions about justification by giving the answer John Gill gave.
     
  8. Joshua

    Joshua pilgrim

    Primitively.
     
  9. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks brother. I actually forgot about Primitive Baptists. I do have a few of those Churches around here in Indy. They called me a door knocker and associated me with being like Whitefield. I took it as a compliment. I found out quickly it wasn't intended to be. ;)
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Junior

    My first experience with them was when visiting a church, and asked the pastor why no missionaries supported on their money board, and his rely was that they were not needed, as God will save His own without any help from us.
     
  11. Joseph Noah Gagliardi

    Joseph Noah Gagliardi Puritan Board Freshman

    Pardon my ignorance, but what could eternal justification possibly mean? We are eternally being justified, as if it is an ongoing process? And in opposition to a once being declared just? Because if so that is outright heresy, and no better than the lies of Rome. We should be without hope.
     
  12. Joshua

    Joshua pilgrim

    Historically, it is understanding that God justified men in eternity, not in time; ergo, this led to a denial of duty-faith, etc. (i.e. the elect are saved regardless if they ever exercise faith or not).
     
  13. Joseph Noah Gagliardi

    Joseph Noah Gagliardi Puritan Board Freshman

    So, how would one argue that sinners, though "elect", could possibly be received by Christ in Heaven, without being first justified? "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand" Romans 5:1,2. Moreover, from reading the comments, am I remiss in understanding that Primitive Baptists hold to such a view of justification?
     
  14. Joshua

    Joshua pilgrim

    I could not tell you. I find the position biblically so untenable that I have not spent time reading their reasons.
     
  15. Joseph Noah Gagliardi

    Joseph Noah Gagliardi Puritan Board Freshman

    Fair enough. Untenable it is indeed. I was just curious, as I had never heard such a thing. I am not a scholar of Baptist theology, much less Primitive Baptist theology.
    By the way, I see RPCGA, and DFW, both familiar to me. Do you attend CCRPC? Haha, yes, I just noticed the CCRPC right next to RPCGA.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  16. Joshua

    Joshua pilgrim

    ;)
     
  17. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    Eternal justification is commonly held by most hyper-Calvinists.

    https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2004/eternal-justification/
    https://www.the-highway.com/eternal-justification_Berkhof.html

    Better that these folks grasped the distinctions related to justification. From Sermons, John Colquhoun (pp. 152-156):
    Thus the elect are justified. — They were justified in the day of eternity, before the world began; in the day of the Redeemer's resurrection; in the day of believing; and in the last day. — In the day of eternity, they were justified intentionally; in the day of the Saviour's resurrection, virtually, or fundamentally; in the day of believing, actually, or declaratively; and at the last day, publicly and solemnly. In the day of eternity, their justification was actually secured; in the day of Christ's resurrection, it was actually merited; in the day of believing, it is actually applied to the conscience; and in the day of judgment it shall be actually declared in the most public and solemn manner. From eternity, they were justified in the purpose of God; at Christ's resurrection, they were justified in the Son of God as their representative; at the time of their beginning to believe, they are justified in the court of God, the court of heaven, and the court of conscience; and in the last day, they shall be justified publicly at Christ's august tribunal.​
     
  18. Joseph Noah Gagliardi

    Joseph Noah Gagliardi Puritan Board Freshman

    Thank you sir, that is most helpful.
     
  19. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Junior

    Primitive Baptists hold that we are born already reconciled back to God as being his Elect in Christ, so the difference to them is do we experience salvation blessings here, or just in heaven, depending on if we receive Jesus through faith here?
     
  20. timfost

    timfost Puritan Board Sophomore

    John Gill:

    "To which it may be answered, that as God’s decree and will to elect men to everlasting life and salvation, is his election of them; and his will not to impute sin to them, is the non-imputation of it; and his will to impute the righteousness of Christ unto them, is the imputation of it to them; so his decree, or will to justify them, is the justification of them, as that is an immanent act in God; which has its complete essence in his will, as election has; is entirely within himself, and not transient on an external subject, producing any real, physical, inherent change in it, as sanctification is and does; and therefore the case is not alike: it is one thing for God to will to act an act of grace concerning men, another thing to will to work a work of grace in them; in the former case, the will of God is his act of justification; in the latter it is not his act of sanctification; wherefore, though the will of God to justify, is justification itself, that being a complete act in is eternal mind, without men; yet his will to sanctify, is not sanctification, because that is a work wrought in men, and not only requires the actual existence of them, but an exertion of powerful and efficacious grace upon them: was justification, as the papists say, by an infusion of inherent righteousness in men, there would be some strength in the objection; but this is not the case, and therefore there is none in it."

    I guess since creation was an "immanent act of God" we have an eternally created world, right Gill?

    Obviously, the reasoning is absurd.
     
  21. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Junior

    It seems that he is stating here that God will and has already saved the elect, apart from act that they might do, even placing faith into Jesus.
     

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