How to Get Doctrine From Hymns

[Charles Purrgeon]

Hi,

Are there any resources about how we should understand doctrine from hymns and songs? Any books, articles, etc. on how we should be discerning when it comes to taking doctrine at face value when singing poetry, and how to be taught through hymn singing? I understand that this is a niche subject. I need to write a chapter on it for my thesis, but perhaps nothing much has been written about it before. If you can think of anything that would help, even if not directly related to hymns, please drop it below.

Thank you so much.

 

[jwithnell]

Does Terry Johnson address this? It seems he would in one of his books on worship.

 

[83r17h]

Machen does some comparison of a couple hymns in his book Christianity and Liberalism. This is a practical reason why singing Psalms is a good thing to do as well, because understanding rather than discernment is required. Several resources on Psalmody address the significance of music (particularly the Psalms) in theological formation. I would venture to say that singing is not only reflective, but also mentally/emotionally shaping.

What is your thesis about?

 

[Ed Walsh]

Are there any resources about how we should understand doctrine from hymns and songs? Any books, articles, etc. on how we should be discerning when it comes to taking doctrine at face value when singing poetry, and how to be taught through hymn singing? I understand that this is a niche subject. I need to write a chapter on it for my thesis, but perhaps nothing much has been written about it before. If you can think of anything that would help, even if not directly related to hymns, please drop it below.

I think we need to be very careful of everything we hear in songs of human composition. The fact is that most songs commonly sung even in Reformed churches do not teach pure and sound doctrine. Why is it that we accept shoddy theology when it comes to singing to and about God while we would never excuse the same poor theology in the sermon to follow? I am not strictly speaking EP in the absolute sense. However, I find there are fewer and fewer hymns that I can sing at all. And in my private worship, I have sung only the Psalms for many years.

Why do we allow doctrinally shallow or even doctorally unsound hymns when we would never allow such looseness by Sunday School teachers or the minister in his sermons?

Should not hymns of human composition used in worship, if allowed at all, be as rigorously scrutinized as theological books and sermons? We are not allowed to check our brains at the coat rack because we are about to sing.

I posted this before but here goes part of it again.

Excerpt from a letter I wrote to my elder: (who is a godly man and good friend).

Consider, O Come, O Come, Emmanuel, as we all play pretend that we are back there in maybe 168 B.C., hoping for the Messiah to come while enduring great suffering under Antiochus (IV) Epiphanes.​

​

Who gave the Church the liberty to make up historical fictions to praise post-Great Commission victor and Savior of the World Jesus Christ, who now has received all power in heaven and earth from His almighty Father? Shouldn't the words of songs of praise speak the truth? We hear of angels singing. No, they don't. At least not in Scripture.​

​

Songs, by their nature, are more likely to be remembered than sermons. Shouldn't they be held to the same standard of doctrine? Just imagine if you went to a church where the opening prayer, without any forewarning, started with the theme of O come, O come like this.​

​

Let us pray.​

Dear Lord, when will you send the promised Messiah? We are mourning in this dreadful exile. We are suffering from Satan's tyranny. Disperse the gloomy clouds of this night and remove death's dark shadows. Etc. Amen," and then proceeded with the sermon.​

And then there are the songs written in the first person with Jesus speaking.
Example: How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord – by John Rippon
Now, what's wrong with this picture?

"Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,​

For I am thy God, and will still give thee aid;​

I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,​

Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand." ​

​

"When through the deep waters I call thee to go,​

The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;​

For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,​

And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress." ​

​

"When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,​

My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;​

The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design​

Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine." ​

​

"E'en down to old age all My people shall prove​

My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;​

And then, when grey hairs shall their temples adorn,​

Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne." ​

​

"The soul that on Jesus hath leaned for repose,​

I will not, I will not desert to his foes;​

That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,​

I'll never, no, never, no, never forsake!"​

Think about it. (Revelation 22:18-19)

 

[Charles Purrgeon]

I think we need to be very careful of everything we hear in songs of human composition. The fact is that most songs commonly sung even in Reformed churches do not teach pure and sound doctrine. Why is it that we accept shoddy theology when it comes to singing to and about God while we would never excuse the same poor theology in the sermon to follow? I am not strictly speaking EP in the absolute sense. However, I find there are fewer and fewer hymns that I can sing at all. And in my private worship, I have sung only the Psalms for many years.

Why do we allow doctrinally shallow or even doctorally unsound hymns when we would never allow such looseness by Sunday School teachers or the minister in his sermons?

Should not hymns of human composition used in worship, if allowed at all, be as rigorously scrutinized as theological books and sermons? We are not allowed to check our brains at the coat rack because we are about to sing.

I posted this before but here goes part of it again.

Excerpt from a letter I wrote to my elder: (who is a godly man and good friend).

Consider, O Come, O Come, Emmanuel, as we all play pretend that we are back there in maybe 168 B.C., hoping for the Messiah to come while enduring great suffering under Antiochus (IV) Epiphanes.​

​

Who gave the Church the liberty to make up historical fictions to praise post-Great Commission victor and Savior of the World Jesus Christ, who now has received all power in heaven and earth from His almighty Father? Shouldn't the words of songs of praise speak the truth? We hear of angels singing. No, they don't. At least not in Scripture.​

​

Songs, by their nature, are more likely to be remembered than sermons. Shouldn't they be held to the same standard of doctrine? Just imagine if you went to a church where the opening prayer, without any forewarning, started with the theme of O come, O come like this.​

​

Let us pray.​

Dear Lord, when will you send the promised Messiah? We are mourning in this dreadful exile. We are suffering from Satan's tyranny. Disperse the gloomy clouds of this night and remove death's dark shadows. Etc. Amen," and then proceeded with the sermon.​

And then there are the songs written in the first person with Jesus speaking.
Example: How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord – by John Rippon
Now, what's wrong with this picture?

"Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,​

For I am thy God, and will still give thee aid;​

I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,​

Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand." ​

​

"When through the deep waters I call thee to go,​

The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;​

For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,​

And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress." ​

​

"When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,​

My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;​

The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design​

Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine." ​

​

"E'en down to old age all My people shall prove​

My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;​

And then, when grey hairs shall their temples adorn,​

Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne." ​

​

"The soul that on Jesus hath leaned for repose,​

I will not, I will not desert to his foes;​

That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,​

I'll never, no, never, no, never forsake!"​

Think about it. (Revelation 22:18-19)

What does this have to do with my question? Do you have any resources or not?

 

[Ed Walsh]

What does this have to do with my question? Do you have any resources or not?

Hi Charles,

I wondered if someone might consider my post off-topic. But I was attempting to answer to give you an answer of sorts.

You asked:

Are there any resources about how we should understand doctrine from hymns and songs?

This quote from your OP and more particularly your title:

How to Get Doctrine From Hymns​

Taken together, these two quotes led me to infer that you take it as a given that you can "get doctrine from hymns."
If you were implying something else, please try to consider why I thought I understood your question.
Again, maybe I wasn't clear, by my answer was that, as a general rule, we should not attempt to "get doctrine from hymns."
I considered my answer as being in agreement with what Albert @83r17h said.

I was going to write a lot more comparing Books, Hymns, and Sermons and the differences (if any) as to who is qualified to compose them. To the question, "Do you have any resources or not?" I suppose I lacked humility, but I was offering my years of study and experience as a resource that might be helpful.

But I will keep that for a different thread at another time.

 

[Jack K]

Thomas:
Offhand, I cannot think of such a book or article. However, I think it is a great idea for a short book or article. Many readers would be interested. I could readily see an article organized around key questions a worship leader ought to ask when selecting songs:

• Is this song theologically sound/correct?
• Are there parts that are technically correct but might be misinterpreted, so that it might be helpful to explain them to the congregation—or to forego singing those songs?
• Does this song help to immerse us in biblical language, or is it pandering to secular culture's way of speaking?
• Might it be helpful to point out some of the biblical language and where it is found in the Bible?
• Does the tone/purpose of the song fit what Christian worship ought to be?
• ...and so on.

The biggest obstacle such a book would face is that while it's pretty easy to come up with the right questions to ask, it's hard to answer them well. It takes much theological training and spiritual maturity to adequately examine a song—much more than can fit in a single book. This is why good hymnal committees include teams of highly-trained theologians.

Consider, O Come, O Come, Emmanuel, as we all play pretend that we are back there in maybe 168 B.C.

Ed, you might consider the unity of the first and second comings of Christ. As we wait for the second coming, we share much with the believers who were waiting for the first coming. We really can sing in concert with them. We can even use some language that might suggest the situation in their time, aware that in our time we are expressing the same hope in the same Savior—even if we are further along in seeing his full flower.

If this were not the case, many of the psalms would be problematical to sing today. For example, take Psalm 56:2. "My enemies trample on me all day long." To use your argument, shall we all play pretend we are back there with David as he's forced to hide out among the Philistines? Isn't that wrong for an age when our King has triumphed and sits on his throne? Perhaps we should suggest to the elders that we toss out Psalm 56. But no, we today have the same fundamental hope in the same Savior whom David prayed to in Psalm 56, even though salvation is further along in our day, and this means we can still sing that psalm. Until Christ's two-part coming is complete in the new creation, the longing of that older age still applies in many ways to our present age. So, you might have other reasons for disliking "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel," but the argument that it belongs to a long-past age is one you might want to rethink.

 

[83r17h]

Thomas,

I should add a bit more detail. I was also uncertain about the exact direction of your question, which is why I attempted to answer a few different ones. It's also why I asked what your thesis is about, because that will give us more context to understand what you're after. The "it" that you need to write about is left a bit unclear.

For example, possible questions you could be asking:
1. How do we build theological beliefs from hymns (prescriptively)?
Answer: don't, because that violates the authority of Scripture (both Ed and myself suggest this because it is the most plain "surface level" reading of the question that you asked)
2. How do people receive theological beliefs from hymns (descriptively)?
Answer: a source to look into would be The Juvenilization of American Christianity
3. What sources talk about the dangers in hymns?
Answer: various resources on (exclusive) Psalmody
4. What role does worship music play in our beliefs?
Answer: again, various resources on Psalmody can address this - with principles that have potentially broader application about the role of worship music in general. Reality and Evangelical Theology by TF Torrance also comes to mind, with his discussion about the mind being shaped by (worship) practice so that it is able to understand doctrine.
5. Examples of analyzing hymns for doctrines that those hymns affirm?
Answer: the book I initially mentioned, Christianity and Liberalism has a short discussion with an example of this
6. Principles of analyzing / selecting proper hymns for use?
Answer: you could check out the front matter of resources like the Trinity Hymnal, or Trinity Psalter Hymnal, etc.

So to be more helpful to you, we need your question to have a bit more detail and specificity. We can probably provide sources for your consideration, but help us filter down what you're looking for!

 

[Charles Purrgeon]

Thomas,

I should add a bit more detail. I was also uncertain about the exact direction of your question, which is why I attempted to answer a few different ones. It's also why I asked what your thesis is about, because that will give us more context to understand what you're after. The "it" that you need to write about is left a bit unclear.

For example, possible questions you could be asking:
1. How do we build theological beliefs from hymns (prescriptively)?
Answer: don't, because that violates the authority of Scripture (both Ed and myself suggest this because it is the most plain "surface level" reading of the question that you asked)
2. How do people receive theological beliefs from hymns (descriptively)?
Answer: a source to look into would be The Juvenilization of American Christianity
3. What sources talk about the dangers in hymns?
Answer: various resources on (exclusive) Psalmody
4. What role does worship music play in our beliefs?
Answer: again, various resources on Psalmody can address this - with principles that have potentially broader application about the role of worship music in general. Reality and Evangelical Theology by TF Torrance also comes to mind, with his discussion about the mind being shaped by (worship) practice so that it is able to understand doctrine.
5. Examples of analyzing hymns for doctrines that those hymns affirm?
Answer: the book I initially mentioned, Christianity and Liberalism has a short discussion with an example of this
6. Principles of analyzing / selecting proper hymns for use?
Answer: you could check out the front matter of resources like the Trinity Hymnal, or Trinity Psalter Hymnal, etc.

So to be more helpful to you, we need your question to have a bit more detail and specificity. We can probably provide sources for your consideration, but help us filter down what you're looking for!

Hi, thanks for your reply. What you've written has been helpful to me, actually, and has already got my mind stirring. My thesis is on the doctrine of the atonement in the hymnody of Isaac Watts. My supervisor suggested I write a chapter on how to 'get' doctrine from hymns - as you say, I will need to clarify in the chapter that we cannot get doctrine from hymns prescriptively, but then focus on how to get them descriptively. My thesis is going to see whether Watts' beliefs on the atonement match up with what he wrote within his hymns/poetry, so I will be focussing more on the descriptive side of things.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

My thesis is going to see whether Watts' beliefs on the atonement match up with what he wrote within his hymns/poetry, so I will be focussing more on the descriptive side of things.

Someone is doing something similar. I found this.

https://religiousaffections.org/art...ns-from-isaac-wattss-trinitarian-controversy/

 

[CathH]

Hi, thanks for your reply. What you've written has been helpful to me, actually, and has already got my mind stirring. My thesis is on the doctrine of the atonement in the hymnody of Isaac Watts. My supervisor suggested I write a chapter on how to 'get' doctrine from hymns - as you say, I will need to clarify in the chapter that we cannot get doctrine from hymns prescriptively, but then focus on how to get them descriptively. My thesis is going to see whether Watts' beliefs on the atonement match up with what he wrote within his hymns/poetry, so I will be focussing more on the descriptive side of things.

Re "how to 'get' doctrine from hymns" - could this also include the issue of how you account for poetic language, hyperbole, the various rhetorical devices that make a hymn aesthetically pleasing, but which mean that you can't read doctrinal propositions out of hymns as straightforwardly as the more precise wording of a confession or catechism. So as an example, for the churches that use Gadsby's hymns, the hymn book performs in effect the same function for teaching theology as something like the Shorter Catechism for churches that use that, but Matthew Hyde in his book on Gadsby's makes the point that the drawback of a hymnbook having this function is the less precise language. (I don't know how many of Watts' hymns are included in Gadsby's, but there are a few.)

The reference is:
Matthew J Hyde, Gadsby's: The Story of a Hymnbook 1814-2014. GS Trust Publications, 2014.