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Why is submission the major defining paradigm so often for men and women. I'm a complimentarian, and if nec. my wife will submit to a family decision I make. But as a wise pastor once pointed out to me: If you've got a Godly wife but have to keep pulling the submission card out, the problem is just as likely with you as it is with your wife...
Same with us, Anna and Elizabeth. She did what you two do and in 23 years there was never any fuss. We'd discuss it and in the rare instances I disagreed with her take on things I went over things with her rationally and while I'd sometimes be persuaded by her opinion the final choice was mine. As in maybe once out of 500 or so times and she didn't mind.
Tim, out of curiosity, in light of how things ended up... is it possible that internally she actually did in fact mind?
Just my thought but husbands should not be telling their wives to do anything, whatsoever. The bible commands wives to submit, not husbands to make sure their wives submit. Those are two different things. Husbands are commanded to love their wives not make sure they submit, that is between them and God.
Just my thought but husbands should not be telling their wives to do anything, whatsoever. The bible commands wives to submit, not husbands to make sure their wives submit. Those are two different things. Husbands are commanded to love their wives not make sure they submit, that is between them and God.
How is she going to submit if the husband does not instruct her? If my employer asks me to make 10 sandwiches for an order, I submit to him. If he never tells me to make any sandwiches, how will I know to make them?
Just my thought but husbands should not be telling their wives to do anything, whatsoever. The bible commands wives to submit, not husbands to make sure their wives submit. Those are two different things. Husbands are commanded to love their wives not make sure they submit, that is between them and God.
How is she going to submit if the husband does not instruct her? If my employer asks me to make 10 sandwiches for an order, I submit to him. If he never tells me to make any sandwiches, how will I know to make them?
If we are to love our wives we are to encourage them to do good. If submitting is a good work that wives are to do, then we are to give instruction on how wives are to submit (i.e. we are to love them, by encouraging them to do the good work of submtting)...and that is to be considered love. If we are to love in specific ways, then it appears that we are to instruct our wives how to submit in specific ways as well.
As a wife, who longs to obey when it comes to submission, I can tell you that based on how a few of you discuss submission, I would not survive a day in your household. As I look at the way Christ led His disciples and how He taught us about the law of God, I see love being the main theme, not barking orders.
The reason why husbands are told to love their wives is because love is what a woman needs, and loving involves guiding and instructing by example, not giving orders. In my mind, it all boils down to the attitude in the heart of both the man and the woman. If a man sees his wife as an inferior, he will feel the need to "bark orders" at her. If a man loves His wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it", he will put his wife's needs above his own and live as Christ in front of her. If the woman's heart attitude is follow the lead of the husband and "submit", it will be quite easy to follow.
One of the things that I think is often left out of the equation is that we told in Christ to submit to one another in love, in marriage as well as in the church since we are in Christ. I believe it is one of the reasons why the wife is told to submit to her husband, because while we are submitting to one another in love, someone eventually has to have the final say, and God has given that role to the man. If a husband takes the view that he is somehow superior, and that his wife always has "to be instructed" he will miss out on the spiritual gifts that the wife may bring to the relationship.
By the way men, have you ever tried to submit to a boss who was barking orders at you all day? Imagine that boss always telling you what to do, scheduling every moment of your day, never listening to anything you have to say. Now, imagine being on the other end of that in your home, and you will understand why women fear the word submission. Imagine again, a boss who talked to you, listened to your opinion, asked your advice and included your ideas in the final decisions. Imagine a boss who when he left town, trusted you enough to let you handle matters. Now bring that in your home and imagine trying to submit to that and you will understand how it feels for the woman.
On the issue of voting, it is not wrong for a man to ask his wife to do the research and bring it to the table for discussion.
As a wife, who longs to obey when it comes to submission, I can tell you that based on how a few of you discuss submission, I would not survive a day in your household. As I look at the way Christ led His disciples and how He taught us about the law of God, I see love being the main theme, not barking orders.
The reason why husbands are told to love their wives is because love is what a woman needs, and loving involves guiding and instructing by example, not giving orders. In my mind, it all boils down to the attitude in the heart of both the man and the woman. If a man sees his wife as an inferior, he will feel the need to "bark orders" at her. If a man loves His wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it", he will put his wife's needs above his own and live as Christ in front of her. If the woman's heart attitude is follow the lead of the husband and "submit", it will be quite easy to follow.
One of the things that I think is often left out of the equation is that we told in Christ to submit to one another in love, in marriage as well as in the church since we are in Christ. I believe it is one of the reasons why the wife is told to submit to her husband, because while we are submitting to one another in love, someone eventually has to have the final say, and God has given that role to the man. If a husband takes the view that he is somehow superior, and that his wife always has "to be instructed" he will miss out on the spiritual gifts that the wife may bring to the relationship.
By the way men, have you ever tried to submit to a boss who was barking orders at you all day? Imagine that boss always telling you what to do, scheduling every moment of your day, never listening to anything you have to say. Now, imagine being on the other end of that in your home, and you will understand why women fear the word submission. Imagine again, a boss who talked to you, listened to your opinion, asked your advice and included your ideas in the final decisions. Imagine a boss who when he left town, trusted you enough to let you handle matters. Now bring that in your home and imagine trying to submit to that and you will understand how it feels for the woman.
On the issue of voting, it is not wrong for a man to ask his wife to do the research and bring it to the table for discussion.
Ruben hasn't ever told me how to vote; one time I even voted differently than he did. Yet if he did, I simply wouldn't consider it that big a deal. There are so many more important things in life, and so much bigger matters of conscience for me before the Lord, than being able to occasionally vote for a slightly different candidate than I may have preferred. Some husbands do in fact leave their wives lists. Some women cannot be trusted as much as others to make good field purchasing decisions, nor would they want the responsibility (I am one of those). Some men do tell their wives how to vote. And though these and many other things are probably unideal in one or both parties, I have been told, and have witnessed the truth of it in the life of one of those ladies whose husband leaves her lists (though she is perfectly capable of purchasing fields quite on her own), that it's all small change in love; and that it only becomes a big deal when we are fixated on our own 'rights' and not on the duties we owe to our Lord, towards one another.
I think the man in this case should patiently instruct his wife, express his preference if there is someone he strongly wishes she would *not* vote for, and leave the rest with the Lord. If she is unwilling to follow, he can't jerk her along short of being abusive; but if he takes a longer and larger view of her welfare than the outcome of one particular election, and seeks to lead her with a daily, consistent gentleness, eventually he may find she is following quite willingly; and while the world has tottered on somehow without their two votes making much of a difference, something more fundamental to the real impact they have on the world around them has come right.
However, if a wife were to try to vote pro-choice and her husband outright demanded that she not do so, and she disobeyed, which is worse, the wife's non-submission or the husband's command?
It would appear that if Sarah called Abraham Lord, then a modern wife can submit to a husband's moral leadership as it pertains to the selection of the leaders of this country.
If a wife only submits when she wants to, this is not truly submission after all, right?
The situation between a bad boss and a demanding husband are not totally analogous, since a boss owns a small sphere of an employee's life (their time, within bounds), but a wife's flesh is her husband's and the risk of "sphere violation" is less than a boss over-stepping his bounds (a husband's bounds are bigger).
If a husband is truly captian of his ship and leads the family in moral decisions, and if the county is faced with many moral choices and we are at a moral crossroads, why would the husband's lead in voting by contrary to his rightful boundaries? If a husband cannot persuade his wife to forsake her error by supporting a better candidate from her heart, he can at least retrain her evil by demanding that she abstain from voting. Right? Wrong? Why?
While the Lord commands His children to follow Him and obey Him, He does not demand it of them. He does not stand over us with a whip.