How to answer - Telling your wife who to vote for

Discussion in 'Family Forum' started by Pergamum, Dec 19, 2011.

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  1. BJClark

    BJClark Puritan Board Doctor

    Pergamum;

    Why does the husband believe his wife is ignorant or even acting out of ignorance? Does he have such little disregard for his wife that he would make such assumptions? Maybe she has taken the time to research and pray, that he is unaware of, and thus is making a fully informed decision.

    If he lacks the time to sit and discuss these things with his wife, maybe he has also lacked the time to really do adequate research on a candidate, and thus is voting out of ignorance to other issues, that may be just as morally relevant.

    Let's make up an example using your and your wife...let's say your out of contact with news media for months on end (being out in the jungle) and you have already decided who you are going to vote for, and while your out of contact news comes out about your candidate that they are supportive of making homosexual marriages and other such things legal, then you come into town briefly just to vote and must get back to the jungle, you've already made your decision and do not 'have time to listen or discuss new information" and continue to demand your wife vote for that candidate, because your mind is made up..but yet, she has this information that just may cause you to change your vote, and you refuse to listen or even discuss because of time constraints, who would be acting out of ignorance? Certainly not the wife, she has information about the candidate the husband is not aware of. So it should not be assumed the wife is acting or even voting out of a place of ignorance.


    If he lacks the time (as per your earlier comment) then how are they holding a council or family meeting to ensure a unanimous decision between the husband and wife?
     
  2. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Thanks for the answers.

    Here's another question: In what occasions is it okay for the husband to make "an executive decision" without a discussion? Is it "wrong" for him to do so, or merely unwise, or merely the husband's choice as to the measure to which he includes her in his decisions as head of the family? (i.e. what level fo involvement must the wife have in the decision-making process?)

    Another question:
    Also, in what occasions, and how, is a wife to correct her husband (we have an example of a foolish husband and a wise wife in David's time, after all). If he is a fool, how can she minimize the effects of his bad choices? How can she contradict or oppose his decisions without herself sinning? Is it worse to suffer the effects of his foolishness or is it worse to sin by disobedience and un-submissiveness? How does a wife steer the home right when the husband is steering it wrong?
     
  3. JBaldwin

    JBaldwin Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    There's a touchy subject. This reminds me of a missionary couple I lived with for a summer. Newly moved into a large home that could accommodate up to twelve guests. Someone donated money for them to purchase a new sofa and chair for the living area. The husband made an executive decision and went out and bought a hideous-looking, black, vinyl (the fake leather kind) matching sofa and easy chair without consulting his wife. He spent all the money that was donated. I suspect he still hears about it today. I sure did every time I sat in it. That is an example of when NOT to make an executive decision.

    Seriously, if a couple is close and has an open relationship, I think the "executive decisions" will be rare.


    I keep a quotation by The Earl of Lyton nearby to remind me of what I need to be to my husband. "It is a wonderful advantage to a man, in every pursuit or avocation, to secure an adviser in a sensible woman. In woman there is at once a subtile delicacy of tact and a plain soundness of judgment which are rarely combined to an equal degree in a man. A woman, if she be really your friend will have a sensitive regard for your character, honor, repute. She will seldom counsel you to do a shabby thing; for a woman friend always desires to be proud of you." I realize how far short I fall of this, and it reminds of what I need to be to my husband.

    It is no easy task for a woman to live with a foolish husband any more than it is for a man to live with a brawling wife. To begin, if the woman focuses on her husband's failings, she will quickly fall into the trap of belittling him which was discussed above. I think that sometimes a woman needs to gently share with her husband her views, and as long as it is not detrimental to her family, let him make a few blunders, and trust God to show him the importance of listening to the good advice of his wife. There is something to the "yin/yang" idea, at least in the sense that husband and wife need each other.
     
  4. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    p.s. Many thanks to Bobbi and Heidi for bearing with these probing questions.
     
  5. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    Every marriage and every situation are different. That's one reason why internet advice has the potential to go so drastically astray. I think internet interaction can help you understand the principles that apply to a given situation, but how they apply, who needs to be told what, varies widely from circumstance to circumstance, and it's extremely unlikely that with only internet acquaintance someone would be able to know both sides and understand the particular situation clearly.
    I think there are certain fundamental principles, for instance, that it's always right to focus more on your own duty than on what someone else should be doing and isn't, or what I just mentioned about the cautious discrimination with which the principles of loving headship and loving submission ought to be applied to differing persons. Included in that list of fundamentals are the points of love, headship, love, submission, gentleness, tenderness, patience, long-suffering, forbearance, delight, and love.
    Husbands are commanded to dwell with their wives according to knowledge. That means knowing one's particular wife particularly, knowing what is burdensome to her and what is not. Voting may be for one person a matter of conscience, and for another simply a minor privilege: requiring or preventing a vote in the one case is very different than doing so in the other.
    There is no need for men to flex their muscles, so to speak, and make decisions without consideration or consultation simply to prove they are in charge. And there is no mechanism of enforcement other than vulnerability and love.
    I am more comfortable speaking about the duties of husbands than of wives. But what I have been privileged to see modeled in the homes I have been in is women who make a point of conscience to submit and do so cheerfully; at times, no doubt, with difficulty, but also without resentment. It is not necessary to flee to a corner of the housetop to be in peace around them. And yes, I know I'm a blessed man.
     
  6. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Thanks Ruben.

    Do you think many christian books on marriage often mislead people into a marriage relationship that becomes "mechanical" or "by the numbers' in an attempt to be more "biblical" due to trying to implement what others are telling them is a proper Christian marriage?

    On the mission field here we have couples on both sides of the polar extreme - where the wife looks after the kids and stays home focused to the exclusion of external ministries (unless there is an emergency....which sometimes happens)...this typifies my family. We also have families where the wife also attempts to learn tribal languages and becomes the main translator. Often there is disagreement as these two camps meet and one camp thinks the other is minimizing the role of the wife too much and the other camp thinks that the wife might be forgetting her primary role for the sake of ministry to others. I am thankful that we are given the freedom on the field to determine our specific ministry roles and Teresa tries to focus mainly on the family, with a short period of instruction of the women and a health clinic during an hour or two on afternoons. It was surprising to me, however, how many missionary wives strongly desire (some even stating what appears to be a demand) to be active in the ministry or have a ministry role outside the home. I feel like I am living in 1950's ideals in a world that has passed me by. Then, on the other hand, the local national evangelists often treat their wives very lowly and I am constantly trying to encourage them to honor their wives more, educate them and teach them the Scripture better.
     
  7. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    I've read most of the posts and find it a little odd on the whole. As to voting, let's remember that even in Prov 31, which so many women use to justify many feminist pursuits, it is her husband that sits at the gates. It would seem (to me) to be a sphere that belongs more to the male than the female. Our church does not practise family voting, but I know of several close by that do, and this way of thinking is not simply disagreed with, it is viscerally attacked. The very idea is offensive in our world today (and this is within the church! Never mind the secular world). I do not 'tell' my wife how to vote, but we discuss issues enough that we understand the other's feelings on just about each and every matter that comes before us, and have a tendency to turn to scripture when we have conflict. It is rarely vague on important issues (rarely as in never). This response brings us to agreement and a common purpose almost without fail. In some areas in which we do disagree, we both practise discretion. I do have final say in what we do or how we respond to a particular situation, but she is my most trusted confidante and sounding board, and her ideas and initiatives are almost always of pure motive and exceptional quality. We each have our spheres of influence and expertise, and it would be foolish for me to counsel (and force her) on how much salt to add to the pot when I am no cook. Nor would she be so forward as to insist that I change how much two stroke oil I add to the gas can for the chain saw. It is out of her sphere. Where they overlap, there must be a pilot and copilot, but while the pilot is in charge and makes the final call, he would be a fool to ignore the warnings of a copilot who tells him that they are about to run into a mountain and must turn. We so often leave Christ out of these discussions and instead resort to reason and temporal examples; if we are both turned towards Him, there is rarely conflict in any decision-making process.
     
  8. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    I have no idea what the statistics are on something like that. But I did tell Heidi to stop reading The Excellent Wife because I thought Martha Peace was spouting bunk. At the moment I can't recall reading completely through any book on marriage, or the different roles; but on the analogy of childrearing materials (to which, ironically, I have more exposure), it seems inevitable that anyone who is not disposed to freely adapt good advice for their own situation is likely to be rather oppressed by excessively detailed instruction.

    I think that missionary wives having large roles outside the home is not always bad; but I think the wife feeling that she needs to do that, and that she is somehow called as a missionary, separately from being called as a missionary wife, is a very bad thing. Her vocation is to her husband and children: and in a society almost entirely unleavened by the gospel, who is to say that the example of a peaceful and loving home is not far more significant than Bible brunches? But I will qualify that by saying that since missionary life imposes unusual burdens on a wife, it seems best for her to have enthusiastic support for the mission, as well for her husband's engaging in it. In other words, of three positions I would take up the middle. On the one hand you have the woman feeling called to nothing but supporting her husband. That's excellent, but certain unusual situations (military life, missionary life) may require an enthusiasm for the husband's work as well. That's the middle. The other extreme, which I consider almost wholly bad, is where the wife feels that her primary role is in her husband's work, instead of providing support. That's where you start getting women preaching, functioning as de facto elders, and subverting, instead of modelling, the order God has set out.

    Of course, there is a general capacity of "older" women to teach the younger, which I do not mean to deny or minimize.
     
  9. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Thanks Kevin and Ruben..... time for me to go assist my lovely bride in her sphere of homeschooling....we gotta cover Vasco De Gama and Balboa and Diaz (and throw in some Marco Polo as an intro maybe)....
     
  10. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    I often feel bound in conscience by things I read; and it is often a very debilitating experience -- it was in the Martha Peace case. As I read further into the book I felt more and more constrained to take our happy marriage of four years before the elders because like most women who grew up in fundamentalism, I have tremendous qualms of conscience about a lot of things my husband does . . . in this case, it was his watching of Spiderman cartoon reruns. This is probably one of those areas where some wives would not take so happily to interference, but I find it can be rather liberating. I asked him what I should do, take him before the elders or silently pray for his soul and he decided I should return the book to the library. Reading is fraught with perils for me. Sometimes I think I shouldn't try it at home; but I'm not sure what other edifice could withstand the impact. I do rely very heavily on a few trusted people's judgment in the area of books, and Ruben is very much at the head of that list.

    Incidentally we did mention this to our elders at one point and they laughed about it.
     
  11. BJClark

    BJClark Puritan Board Doctor

    Pergamum;


    What do you consider an 'executive decision'? What you view it as may be different than what I do.

    If a husband relies on his wife to manage the household finances, and they are struggling with the budget they have coming in-- and he merely goes out and makes a major purchase without first discussing it with her to see where things 'sit financially' he is making a foolish decision.

    I have personally witnessed men look only at what they bring home in their paycheck (or what's sitting in the bank account), and not take into consideration what they have going out bills' wise (and what checks may be out standing and haven't cleared the account) go out and make major purchases without discussing things with their wife. They ended up in a very ugly situation..checks bounced (putting them further behind as the bank added fees to each check that bounced) and also bringing in another debt that their budget could not cover based on the income coming into the home.

    At the same time, I have witnessed wives who have gone out and ran up thousands of dollars in credit card debt as well, thinking along the same lines--only looking at the amount of money coming into the household while not paying attention or knowing what was being paid out.. how will that added debt load effect the overall financial picture of their household?

    However, if there is a family need for an emergency purchase (not something just because it's on sale or a want) but a true need then I believe the husband should make the decision, even if the expense is outside the family budget and they make adjustments for it.

    How is she too 'correct' her husband? in love, after much prayer, and depending on the issue, she could suggest taking a budgeting course, if the issue is finances,
    if it's about the opinions of a particular candidate and how one should vote then she should be able, (without fear of being looked down upon, or looked at as if she is ignorant of the issues) to discuss her reasons why she believes the one is the better candidate than the other.

    I love how it's said husbands 'teach' their wives, but wives 'correct' their husbands.. :)

    Minimizing the effects of his bad choices is not always easy and sometimes impossible--

    A wife can not steer the home right if the husband is steering it wrong..

    If a husband and wife are a team, and the husband is the captain, does he not pay attention and take into consideration the talents, gifts, abilities and wisdom of the team mate God has provided him?

    Whats with down playing of a husband making foolish decisions as if it is not sinful??

    ---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

    This is an area I think a Missionaries wife would be of great importance, in teaching the young christian woman how to serve God by serving their family and knowing the local tribal language would a great benefit to that end.

     
  12. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    It's always good when couples like Ruben and Heidi throw out a few examples of mistakes they've made in their marriage. Makes the rest of us hopeful that eventually we'll attain that level of maturity even with the mistakes we've made.
     
  13. Joseph Scibbe

    Joseph Scibbe Puritan Board Junior

    Your wife is just as much a citizen in this country as you and therefore deserves the vote that you do. I think it is a terrible idea to make your wife vote for the candidate you want. God put husbands as the loving leaders of homes and not dictator.

    Yes, women should have the right to vote.
     
  14. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura Puritan Board Doctor

    But see, we should note how pagans and infidels who have spouse abuse formalized in their religions do it. Since the majority of the world - for the majority of the time - has been pagan, and since our "modern" way is such an "anomaly," we should defer to the practices of these godless wretches and boss our wives around (in a loving way, of course) and order them to function as extensions of our wills, especially in the voting process.

    ---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------

    Perhaps this is better suited for a different thread, but what "bunk" was she spouting?

    ---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 AM ----------

    Really? That's amazing. And given your admission, I think it is entirely valid to ask where you've gained your views of roles and marriage, which you share with such vigor?
     
  15. Pilgrim Standard

    Pilgrim Standard Puritan Board Sophomore

    I think the marriage of Ruben and Heidi as played out over time is more than sufficient. It is a beautiful thing and much to be admired. Thankfully they have not fallen to much of the dribble I have seen in marriage books (Not that I would think they would.) My wife Denise read the excellent wife and was not impressed.
     
  16. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    Ben I'm so happy to know that Denise's judgment concurs with mine. She is one of my heroes in the faith (Kevin, Elizabeth is another): I am sure her prayers have more influence in world affairs than even her vote :).

    I think it did manage to convey (speaking as someone who was very influenced by it at the time) that all marriages must look very much alike, and make the wife feel empowered and even obligated, in conjunction with her elders, to see that the husband toe the line in this area, giving only a hat tip of acknowledgement to the very real fact that a wife's conscience may be out of order, while failing to communicate that the burden of conscientious submission may be greater than the burden of preventing a husband from violating one's own set of scruples. It's been a few years since I read it, but I think I remember an example of a wife whose husband wouldn't help her with the housework on some occasion. He (who presumably had been through at least a 40 hour work week previously) was styled selfish and lazy, and she was to try to combat these character flaws in him, for his own good (not as a ruler of his faith but as a helper of his joy). The elders were mentioned in conjunction with such helping of his joy should the husband prove recalcitrant.

    Tim, like many of my errors it was ridiculous but happily ridiculous things can be laughed about. We are all so full of ridiculous flaws, but somehow they make us even more dear to each other.
     
  17. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura Puritan Board Doctor

    How about this: I don't tell Kay to do anything. I simply "suggest." As in, "If you know what's good for you, then I suggest you have dinner ready by the time I get home." Or, "If you know what's good for you, then I suggest you have the house "white-glove" inspection ready by the time I get home."

    BWAH HA HA!








    Just kidding. I don't do that. But so that I can act like a husband from the world outside western culture, maybe that's the way to go! Since us "Westerners" are all screwed up on the topic!
     
  18. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    Ben, I was hesitant to reply directly to what you said before (for I am sure Ruben will do so when he gets around to it, and I wouldn't attempt to explain one vigorously expressed person to another :) but regarding the Martha Peace book -- perhaps a point of criticism you as a minister will recognise and understand from a housewife, is that the book made me feel yet more responsible for things outside of my control, while failing to help me focus in a gospel light on the things that are. You spoke above of how each of us ought to focus on our own duties. Either my own duties were significantly enlarged to take in my husband's also, or the book had an unhelpful focus on his (this, with a 'one size fits all' sort of approach: even in Western culture, there are as many variations as individuals). I am sure the author is an excellent wife to her own husband and I am sure book is helpful for some marriages. I am glad I'm not in one them, personally, for it wouldn't suit me.

    Surely though all our cultures are screwed up on the topic (as Pergy says, in more characteristically different ways), or there would be no need for Biblical instruction, and tenderheartedness and forgiveness of one another, and a life of 'increasing repentance' in our callings?

    Incidentally, I can't remember the last time Ruben either told or suggested that I have dinner ready when he gets home, or have the house cleaned. What he does tell me is to let him know if I can't have dinner in time for him to pick up something, for he knows that some days I'm not able to be up and around for that; and sometimes he tells me not to do more cleaning in a day than I've already done, because he knows I'm likely to overdo it. I am sure if Kay were unwell you would do the same for her, because I'm sure you love her more than your own convenience; but as I read through the testimonies of men on this thread of their wives competence etc, while it makes me honor their wives, it strikes me that very few men know how much my husband daily carries for me, and how much of his own life he has, as a matter of course, laid down for mine.
     
  19. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura Puritan Board Doctor

    Ok, thank you for shedding that light on it for me. I agree that "one-size-fits-all" approaches to human relationships are naive at best and quite likely to be harmful.

    That's great! I love it that he is able to assume you're going to get your work done unless you tell him otherwise. That is wonderful.

    I love her tremendously. When she is ill or stressed out or at the end of her rope, I accommodate her. She's very busy - we've got 5 kids, she home schools 4 of them, she's the den mother for our son's Wolf den, etc.... it is a good thing she was a sergeant in the army back in the day! And she is very bright. I'm very glad that God gave me Kay - she's a great fit for me and my intense personality.

    I'm glad you're acutely aware of your husband's sacrifices for you. You might be surprised at the number of women who think they're the only ones having to sacrifice. (Though it works both ways.)
     
  20. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    How wonderful -- when you've spoken of her here, I've always thought she sounds superb and exemplary. It's a marvel to me how God does suit people to one another, from their whole life histories.

    And yes, the sacrifices in marriage happily go both ways (happily because I think love embraces sacrifice for the loved one), though I think in this case, they are vastly uneven, and I have the much lighter load. :)
     
  21. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    From reading your posts about husbandly prohibitions, naturally!

    My ever useful wife did bring to my attention that I have read Fidelity by Doug Wilson, but I only remember two things from it, probably because I disagreed with them.

    Thanks, Ben. That means a lot coming from someone who is close enough to us to have seen my shortcomings in some detail. Speaking of dribble and those how-to studies, I thought Rich's point here was excellently made. What I find has been helpful has been learning more theology, and particularly appreciating the way grace simply permeates the entirety of Paul's relationships with his churches. It's the whole atmosphere he breathes.
     
  22. jogri17

    jogri17 Puritan Board Junior

    Why is individualism godly and a more corporate mentality superior? Capitalism and individualism go hand in hand while socialism and a more corporate mentality go along together. Unless you a socialist, I never quite understood why Reformed folk bash so called ''individualism'' when they are just as individualistic as baptists or Congregationalists whom they accuse of being individualistic.
     
  23. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Heidi:

    I was actuallly thinking of posting another op about this very thing in our day:

    That somehow a husband must help his wife in housework or baby work or else he is sinning. I believe this error has been swallowed whole in our day by even most Christians. I say this as one who works very vigorously within my own domain and who wants nothing of changing the diapers of slippery little babies that scare me.

    ---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------

    I will repeat this question again:

     
  24. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    This is also going to vary based on the prevalence and degree of foolishness. Nabal could not be spoken to; some men can. When Abigail took independent action it was still for the preservation of her husband and household. In other words, it appears that she was still trying to honor and love him, even when he'd been a jerk. It may also be worth pointing out that his foolishness brought the whole household into peril of death. And she honestly admitted what she had done at an opportune moment. I'm sure there's a lot to be gained from meditation on that passage, but a few points strike me:
    1. The extremity of the situation. It was not a light pressure that led Abigail to act so decidedly against what her husband had expressed.
    2. That her motive was still right. It was not personal vindication or even convenience that moved her, but the desire to protect her household.
    3. That she honored him by telling him the truth. She recognized that she was, in a sense, accountable to him - in spite of his patent folly.
    4. That she chose times and opportunities wisely. Her prudence and knowledge of her husband are displayed in that she was careful about what she brought to him when. There is a way of dealing with anyone that minimizes conflict, and a way that maximizes.
    Obviously there's more to the story: Abigail knows that David is the Lord's anointed, and it's not like the passage is a how-to manual for wives of pigheaded husbands. But what I'm driving at is that a wise woman builds her house, whereas a foolish woman plucks it down; if a husband must be resisted let it be in the service of the house, with full attempt to honor and love the very one who must be resisted. There is also the tale of Abraham and Sarah, after all.
     
  25. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Thanks, good stuff Ruben.

    ---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

    I think all my questions are answered. Thanks for all the input. Sorry to press any point of this issue, but I wanted to flesh out some specifics here. May God bless our families and have mercy on us and guide us rightly.
     
  26. jwright82

    jwright82 Puritan Board Graduate

    Your right that was a bit unclear. What I meant to say was that the word "tell" is a loaded term. It can mean ordering someone to do something or simply conveying information. Just for the record I do not believe that any husband on this website is advocating ordering their wife around. The confusion I think comes with the words we use. I think that it is very o.k. for a husband to tell their wife how they feel and what they think she should do and she has that same right. I don't think that the husband should she be concerned about whether or not they submit and therefore tell (order them to submit) them to do something. I think the words we use in this conversation sometimes betray us despite our intentions.

    ---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------

    Your right of course. It is my fault for being unclear with my words. What I meant was that the husband should never tell (as in order) his wife to do anything whatsoever, like vote a certian way. The commandment was given to wifes only, the only person who should tell them to subit in that sense is the Holy Spirit because it is between them and God. Telling them (in the sense of conveying information or desires) not to vote for a certian person is just fine but they have that right to.

    I mean look at it psychologically. I guess most women, and please any women who wishes to correct me here is welcome (I do not want to be offensive), will for the most part submit and be led if they feel love and security. They will generally trust your leadership if they know that you are completly dedicated to their wellbeing and desires. So why tell them to submit? Let the Holy Spirit do that. As far as instructing them, they can read can't they? Again I am not saying that anyone on this website is advocating ordering their wifes around, I believe that the words we use bring confusion.

    You should instruct them in many things, just as much as they should (you pointed that out in your post). But as far as how to submit, I believe the Holy Spirit should do that. If and only if a husband has perfectly obeyed their commandment to "love their wife as Christ loves the church" then they can worry about whether or not not their wife submits, until then they have a lot of work to do.
     
  27. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    James:

    If I have to make a decision for the family and I tell my wife what to do due to that decision, isn't this "ordering her" in some form or fashion? If so, yes, I am then advocating that husbands may give orders to their wives.

    There is a semantic range to these types of phrases (making a decision, guiding one's home, deciding for the family, instructing, ordering, ordering around, commanding, demanding). Why choose the phrase "order around" instead of "make a decision" for the family? Your phrase is a loaded one.

    ---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

    If you decide as a family (with you as the head) that you are going to practice discipline to keep your children from playing near the road and your wife does not follow this husband-led decision, wouldn't you be concerned? You as the head of the house and the captain of the ship are ultimately responsible if your ship sinks.

    ---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------

    Can you back this up Scripturally?

    ---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

    James, what if husband and wife disagree on a time-sensitive issue for which a decision must be made? Is it wrong for a husband to then step up and make a command decision for his family and lead them rather than has his equal vote vetoed by the co-ruler of the home?

    ...Or is submission reserved for only those cases when she wants to submit?
     
  28. jwright82

    jwright82 Puritan Board Graduate

    I don't think that "enforcing" should really be used in the marriage situation, it says too much. Other than blatent sins, like abuse or adultery, the church should never get involved in a "submission" issue like say which school to send ones child to. They should tell the husband to seek counseling to resolve their issue not repromand the wife for disagreeing with their husband. You can command all day long but whether or not the wife submits is between them and God. Husbands should worry about their command. Lets look at a controversial issue, if it is over the line than I apologize.

    If a husband has their repromanded for not submitting to them on who to vote for she is probably going to be very mad. Which means that she will not be in the "mood" for some time. Now men as they say have certian "needs" and what does a husband do in that situation? Does he quote that verse that forbids married couples from "withholding themselves from eachother" and command her into to bed, saying that she is to submit to him? How is that not rape? You see your words prove more than I think you intend them to. That is why I choose the side that I am advocating. Your "logic" completly allows my extreme example but I doubt that any of us would agree that it is right.
     
  29. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Wouldn't a church be shirking its duties if it ignored a clear violation of Scripture's commands for a wife to submit to her husband? If a school must be decided on and husband and wife are split and the husband decides and the wife refuses to abide by this decision, this appears to be an issue for which the elders' involvement fits better than a detached third party counselor (who is probably tainted by secular philosophies of counseling anyhow). It appears that an ingrained pattern of non-submissiveness in things that are neutral and do not involve clear moral principles is a fit subject for church discipline. Would you agree?

    A case study: Mrs Olsen. Have you ever watched the old Little House series? Mrs Olsen was the wife of the local grocer and she was a bear of a woman (but she went to church every Sunday). If and when Mrs Olsen defied her husband (a regular occurrence on the show) should the church have stepped in?

    ---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

    For the sake of argument, let's talk about these specific questions:


    Questions:

    -Why are we tip-toeing around the "mood" of the wife? I can imagine many people under church discipline have their mood impacted. Males have their mood impacted when they are rebuked as well. Why is this any different for a wife?

    -If a husband and a wife are not to withhold sexually from one another and this is a command of Scripture, why don't you think this is a fit subject for church discipline?

    --As for "marital rape" we could start another thread, but a husband and wife have rights to the others' body that those outside the marriage covenant do not have. If a husband were, in fact, to force himself onto his wife, this might be classified as sin but I am not sure whether the sin of "rape" is the most appropriate term for this action. I am not sure. Let's start another thread if you want.

    I am not sure how the right of a husband to make command decisions for his family leads to marital rape, however.
     
  30. Reformed Thomist

    Reformed Thomist Puritan Board Sophomore

    Commanding a person to vote this way or that is basically robbing them of their vote; they are not 'voting' at all, but rather you are, while using them as an instrument (at least, that is what you're trying to do). To say 'you must choose A over B...' is to say 'you do not have a choice' -- in essence, no vote.
     
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