heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
Is the altar call really the standard mode of modern evangelism today? I have never been to a church that had one. My church's idea of evangelism is "personal evangelism".
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Originally posted by Rick Larson
Is the altar call really the standard mode of modern evangelism today? I have never been to a church that had one. My church's idea of evangelism is "personal evangelism".
Originally posted by Rick Larson
Must be a bigger deal down south. Up here it's mostly Lutherans, not many altar calls.
When I was 12, I was "saved" because I responded to an altar call at a "revival" at a local baptist church.
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Yeah, I have to admit I've never seen an altar call in a Lutheran or Presbyterian church!
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
We're told in Acts that, after Pentecost, Peter preached to the entire crowd and they all heard in their own language. Luke then tells us that several thousand (I don't have it in front of me for the exact number) were added to their number that day.
First of all, does that mean those several thousand were saved (regenerated)?
Second of all, how did Luke know? What was the evidence that they'd been regenerated? If several thousand TOLD him, wouldn't that be "Confession of Faith" the same as if they'd all come forward for a Billy Graham altar call?
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
...this thread will turn into another credobaptist/paedobaptist debate...
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Don't worry about giving instructions about "how to get saved," or some formulaic path...[just] "repent and believe."
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Because we don't know a man's heart, we don't know (even when we think we do) when one passes from death to life--what is the "tipping point."
How can I fix the moment? I cannot. Who cares? I know I am saved because right now I am trusting wholeheartedly on Christ for salvation and no other. He is my King and Savior."
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Laymen are not called to evangelize. The best thing laymen can do is witness to the faith by word and deed, and invite others to church.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Laymen are not called to evangelize. The best thing laymen can do is witness to the faith by word and deed, and invite others to church.
Virginia,
What would you say in the case of my supervisors at work, a married couple, who have no knowledge of the Bible other than what they see in me? I've invited them to church many times, but they've never come with me. They ask me plenty of questions, though, about the Bible, about things they've seen on TV, about religion and about Christ. I do my best to answer these questions for them.
I am NOT ordained, but I started having a Bible study with them every two weeks. They're very interested and ask a lot more questions there. Am I not evangelizing? Should I not be having this Bible study since I'm not ordained? Should I just complacently keep asking them to church and do nothing else?
Jeremy
III. As the charge and office of interpreting the holy scriptures is a part of the ministerial calling, which none (however otherwise qualified) should take upon him in any place, but he that is duly called thereunto by God and his kirk; so in every family where there is any that can read, the holy scriptures should be read ordinarily to the family; and it is commendable, that thereafter they confer, and by way of conference make some good use of what hath been read and heard.
VI. At family-worship, a special care is to be had that each family keep by themselves; neither requiring, inviting, nor admitting persons from divers families, unless it be those who are lodged with them, or at meals, or otherwise with them upon some lawful occasion.
VII. Whatsoever have been the effects and fruits of meetings of persons of divers families in the times of corruption or trouble, (in which cases many things are commendable, which otherwise are not tolerable,) yet, when God hath blessed us with peace and purity of the gospel, such meetings of persons of divers families (except in cases mentioned in these Directions) are to be disapproved, as tending to the hinderance of the religious exercise of each family by itself, to the prejudice of the publick ministry, to the rending of the families of particular congregations, and (in progress of time) of the whole kirk. Besides many offences which may come thereby, to the hardening of the hearts of carnal men, and grief of the godly.
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Why not invite your pastor to teach the Bible study? By all means continue to witness to your supervisors. But God has ordained the means by which men are ordinarily saved and those means are through the church. Continue to invite them to church, if the occasion warrants, and if they are willing, there is much in the way of Biblical literature that you can provide them with. Pray with them, pray for them, and consider whether you might be called to ministry yourself. But also consider that the church is the channel through which salvation is ordinarily appointed by God.
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Ultimately, their salvation is not in your hands. It is in God's hands. God has clearly put it in your heart to be concerned for their spiritual well-being, which is a very good thing, but remember that He is sovereign, and He, only He, can open their hearts. He has appointed the church to be the means of grace by which the gospel is made known to men. Your duty, as I see it, is to work within the means that He has provided towards that end. The highest end of our duty, of course, is not necessarily the salvation of men, but rather the glory of God, who is Lord over both the elect and the reprobate. We don't know who is who, but we do know that the church is the witness to the world by which the gospel is proclaimed. So our duty is to work within the church rather than outside the church.
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Jeremy's pastor is an Arminian. Jeremy is far better equipped to evangelize his supervisors than his pastor is.
When it comes to sharing the Gospel, it is impossible to do it "outside the church". When Jeremy, or I, or any other Christian shares Christ with people from the Scriptures, we act as Christ's ambassadors OF the church.
If anyone has a clear opportunity to share the Gospel with someone, but they don't do it merely because they are not ordained, I think they are gravely sinning. What level of intelligence does it take to know the Gospel? . . . the intelligence of a child. And Jeremy FAR surpasses that.
I'm pretty sure his supervisors are a lot more open to hearing the Gospel from him than they are to hearing it from Jeremy's Arminian pastor, whom they don't even know.
Keep up the good work, Jeremy!
Q158: By whom is the word of God to be preached?
A158: The word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted,[1] and also duly approved and called to that office.[2]
1. I Tim. 3:2, 6; Eph. 4:8-11; Hosea 4:6; Mal. 2:7; II Cor. 3:6
2. Jer. 14:15; Rom. 10:15; Heb. 5:4; I Cor. 12:28-29; I Tim. 3:10; 4:14; 5:22
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by Rick Larson
Must be a bigger deal down south. Up here it's mostly Lutherans, not many altar calls.
Yeah, I have to admit I've never seen an altar call in a Lutheran or Presbyterian church!
Originally posted by street preacher
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
We should all FLEE laziness in evangelism. That's why I love about our good ole' Calvinist buddy, the Apostle Paul: He was very active and fervent in sharing the Gospel. And yet he NEVER gave an "altar call" or invited anyone to pray "the sinner's prayer".
This is precisely my point. We are the messengers whose intent should be to worship the Lord through the proclamation of the gospel and God is the One who will do the work of conversion without the invention of man namely the alter call!
Originally posted by Robin
Here's a springboard that may educate those adherents to the "altar call"...first, an altar in a true Church of Christ is an abomination. Why? Because Christ was slain on the final sacrificial "altar"...remember, the curtain was torn at that time? The idea of altar was done away...and replaced by the table of the Supper. The Supper where God's lambs receive the "sign and seal" of God's Promise to save them based on His Son's sacrifice. NOT the altar where WE offer a sacrifice or re-sacrifice Christ (as Rome insists.)
Actually, the altar call is "Roman" by design....
Robin
Jeremy, you asked a little earlier: "How does a reformed evangelist end his sermon?" I answered, "See you in church!"Originally posted by JeremyConrad
I know what you're saying, but doesn't this sound like you're contradicting yourself? Besides, if, in order to be saved, you simply have to "repent and believe", you're back to the Arminian synergistic position. YES, I agree that you must "repent and believe", but not so you can be regenerate. It is BECAUSE you're regenerate that you do this.Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Don't worry about giving instructions about "how to get saved," or some formulaic path...[just] "repent and believe."
Hey, I'm glad we're on the same sheet of music! But this isn't a hard question. We know because the Spirit inspired Luke to inform us. He tells us in Acts 2 that He effectually called not less than thousands to saving faith from the first NT, post-ascencion sermon. I suggest that history teaches us that Pentecost was a "special occasion." And praise God there have been others. And will be again, I believe, if Christ tarries. But we won't have the same infallible guidance about the persons (and neither did Whitefield--but the proof was in the pudding, so to speak.)Originally posted by JeremyConrad
Luke picked a fixed point in time when these thousands were added to the faith. You see, I'm not even arguing with you. I completely agree with what you're saying. I'm just trying to figure out how to bring together this dicotomy between "no one can know another's heart" and "thousands were added to the faith THAT DAY".Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Because we don't know a man's heart, we don't know (even when we think we do) when one passes from death to life--what is the "tipping point."
How can I fix the moment? I cannot. Who cares? I know I am saved because right now I am trusting wholeheartedly on Christ for salvation and no other. He is my King and Savior."
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
...this isn't a hard question. We know because the Spirit inspired Luke to inform us...
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
...this isn't a hard question. We know because the Spirit inspired Luke to inform us...
You're absolutely right. But I doubt that Luke knew he was being Divinely inspired when he wrote this. Even if he DID know that, Theophilus didn't know it.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
Here's my point:
1. One CAN know the specific time of one's own conversion or regeneration. Many of us can point to the specific time in our own life.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
2. Luke shows us that apparently one CAN know the specific time of another's conversion as well.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
3. Since there IS a specific and fixed point of conversion and since you CAN know what that point is...what is that evidence? Luke actually SAW the evidence in thousands of people at one time.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
Regarding the sinner's prayer as we discussed earlier:
A. Does anyone think that it is WRONG to pray it?
B. What if a person has truly been made alive in Christ and then prays the prayer?
C. What if the prayer is prayed in RESPONSE to what God has done?
(Lord, I know I'm a sinner. I believe that You sent Your Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins. I place my faith in You and ask that You fill my heart completely with Your Spirit. Thank You for saving me. Thank You for loving me and dying for me even while I was living in sin. Thank You for the new life You've given me through Your Son. Amen.)
Wow! What an awesome prayer of thankfulness - NOT because you think the prayer is what saved you, but because you've BEEN saved and want to offer this sacrifice of praise to the One who saves you.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
To argue both sides of the issue: So, are you saying that Luke was assuming regeneration when he wrote that comment? Luke would not HAVE to assume if he was being Divinely inspired?
Choice 1: Luke was Divinely inspired to write this comment, but had no hard evidence to make the claim to Theophilus (and ultimately to you and I). With no hard evidence, Luke still felt confident enough to write the comment because he assumed regeneration. But why would Theophilus believe him not knowing Divine inspiration was involved?
Choice 2: Luke was Divinely inspired to write this comment, but he personally saw hard-and-fast evidence to make the claim to Theophilus and was not making an assumption. With this evidence, Luke felt confident in writing this comment to Theophilus knowing that he had personally seen the evidence.
Just a conjecture: Maybe the fact that a doctor wrote this gave Theophilus enough trust in Luke's writing that it didn't matter whether or not Luke saw evidence. If Luke said it, he would believe it.
Originally posted by JeremyConrad
Regarding the sinner's prayer, I wholeheartedly agree! I just wanted to see where people stand on this issue.
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
So often, people push people into praying the "sinner's prayer", and then give them false assurance afterwards by saying, "Now you are a Christian!"
This is false, man-made assurance that is not Biblically based.
[Edited on 7-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
Originally posted by Rick Larson
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
So often, people push people into praying the "sinner's prayer", and then give them false assurance afterwards by saying, "Now you are a Christian!"
This is false, man-made assurance that is not Biblically based.
[Edited on 7-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
Just so you know, I am in agreement with pretty much everything you've written. I have one question, however: When, and under what circumstances can you tell a person "now you are a Christian"?