How far into Arminianism?

[Ivan]

Did you look at the list in the link?

 

[BaptistCanuk]

No, I didn't look at any list. I just saw your quote. I am sorry as clearly I was wrong. I thought you were talking about any old Arminian.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by Ivan

Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
No, I didn't look at any list. I just saw your quote. I am sorry as clearly I was wrong. I thought you were talking about any old Arminian.

No problem.

Might be sticking my neck out here, but I know many arminian Baptists and all I can say is that are Christians. I've know them for many years and they are certainly not Emergent or Post-Modern Christians. Ariminian they might be, but they are Old School Ariminian...which MANY Southern Baptists are.

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Thanks Ivan. I severely edited my post and included an apology. Sometimes my passion eliminates my brain.

(I intended to put the head banging emoticon but can't figure out how to get it to show up in the post)

 

[BobVigneault]

"Sometimes my passion eliminates my brain."

That's a good quote Brian. I might have that tatoo'd on the inside of my eyeballs.

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Thanks Ivan. I severely edited my post and included an apology. Sometimes my passion eliminates my brain.

(I intended to put the head banging emoticon but can't figure out how to get it to show up in the post)

It's okay.

BTW, sometimes to get an emoticon you need to hit the quote button on the person's post. That's the only way I've been able to get all of the emoticon.

LOL

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Ok thanks Ivan. That is like my favourite emoticon and I wanted to use it. haha

I have family up in Wisconsin. Beautiful state.

 

[caddy]

Bill

This is my view as well. I was saved at an early age, have no doubt about it ( Age 14 ). There were times even early in my life--as an adolescent, that I had geniune concerns about Spiritual things. My mom use to tell me I constantly asked her deep questions about God and things she couldn't answer. I believe that Christ obviously had my life in his hands as He tells us, "before the foundation of the world." I went through many twist and turns, however, as all of God's children does, and did my share of "wandering." But even then He knew I was His. I was raised Methodist and much of my roots where there, with my Mom taking me to Church, often "bribing" me and my brother that she would take us to get candy if we would behave in church. I was married in a Church of God ( Pentecostal Church), but did not stay but a couple of years. Reading John MacArthur's book about Pentecostals helped correct my doctrine there and I was off to an independent Baptist Church. All this time, I was working in the Church. Works existed in my life not because I knew they had any saving effect, but because I knew that because I was changed, saved, God's Child, I wanted to work in any capacity I could. In other words, there was visible "fruit" in my life and a geniniune love for God in my heart that manifested itself in works. Knowing what I know now, I certainly wished my mom would have been raised Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian, but God often takes the inadequecies and poor life experiences and makes us His in His own way and in His own time and to His Glory--just as Romans 8:28 tells us.

Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
FIRST - I am NOT entering the fray of Matt and Phil.

The topic I am introducing has been bugging me since I came out of Arminianism. As a Baptist I believe I deal with this controversy more than most Presbyterians (although I may be wrong).

I post on a Baptist board with the hopes of bringing the truth of the doctrines of sovereign grace to my fellow Baptists. As you can imagine, it is a tough road to hoe. I made the following post this morning with a person with whom I go toe-to-toe with regularly:

For the record, I do not hold to the view that one must be a Calvinist in order to be saved. When a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ their knowledge of theology is limited. Most only know their sin and that Jesus Christ is able to forgive their sins if they repent and place their faith solely in Christ. As they grow in respect to salvation their theology will often times tell whether their faith was accurate. For instance, if a person claims faith in Christ and then goes on to proclaim that Jesus is not God then their faith was in vain because they have denied an essential truth. They were never saved to begin with. As far as the doctrines of sovereign grace, it depends on how deep they progress into the free will side. I do not believe the foreknowledge view alone will prove their salvation false. But there are depths to the free will view that I believe do prove their salvation false. I suppose that is for another thread.

This is the view I currently hold to. There are many believers out there who are still neophytes. Their knowledge of theology is limited. They have bought into the foreknowledge view since that is what they are exposed to in their churches. But is the foreknowledge view alone enough to prove their confession of faith false? I don't believe so. I have come to appreciate the opinions of many in here so I turn it you, my brothers in Christ for your prayerful responses.

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]

[Edited on 4-20-2006 by caddy]

[Edited on 4-20-2006 by caddy]

 

[caddy]

Amen !

Another encouraging, wise post.

Thanks Bob

Originally posted by BobVigneault
Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

I don't have the technical knowledge to go very deep into your question Bill but let me bring up a couple guidelines.

One, knowledge of theology can be very limited as indicated in Pauls short list of the conditions of salvation. Paul states the conditions in one verse and repeats them in a second. That is remarkably simple and concise. Justification requires no knowledge on the part of men but only that he be known by God.

Sanctification on the other hand is helped or hindered depending on our level of study, meditaion, comprehending and understanding. Theology is not just for professionals. Furthermore, if a person shows NO desire to know the things of God and His Word then we ought to call into question whether justification has taken place.

The thief on the cross was quickened and regenerated, as a result he believed that God would raise Christ from the dead, and he believed that Jesus was the ruler over death, not Rome or Satan. He was justified and expressed enough knowledge to prove his justification.

But the other guideline we need to be aware of is that the rules change for a teacher.
James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

Pastors, elders and those who would teach are responsible for what they know and for leading or misleading their hearers. If you are a leader in the church you ought to be consumed with learning the doctrines of sovereign grace.

What's more, the knowledge that we learn will be justified by the effect it has upon our demeanor.

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

So a love of knowledge is a sign of justification, and gentleness and good fruits are signs that the knowledge we are attaining is true wisdom.

I was once speaking to an associate pastor about election and he said, "I don't like the topic but I know it's in Romans 9 so I can't get away from it. But there's no way I understand it."
This young man had his favorite pet verses and he was content. Every single morning of the week, in his office he had time to play fantasy football online. He and his buddies would discuss their picks and plays after church service. But he didn't have time to study Romans 9. He is not the exception in the mainstream churches today. Pastors are not teaching biblical knowledge.

I am so thinkful Bill that there are pastors, teachers and elders like you on this board that are asking the right questions and love the pursuit of right thinking.

 

[Herald]

Thanks everyone for your comments and insight. It look as though this thread is winding down. I have taken all your responses to heart and have found many of them comforting.

Sola Christos!

Bill

 

[Herald]

Originally posted by caddy
Bill

This is my view as well. I was saved at an early age, have no doubt about it ( Age 14 ). There were times even early in my life--as an adolescent, that I had geniune concerns about Spiritual things. My mom use to tell me I constantly asked her deep questions about God and things she couldn't answer. I believe that Christ obviously had my life in his hands as He tells us, "before the foundation of the world." I went through many twist and turns, however, as all of God's children does, and did my share of "wandering." But even then He knew I was His. I was raised Methodist and much of my roots where there, with my Mom taking me to Church, often "bribing" me and my brother that she would take us to get candy if we would behave in church. I was married in a Church of God ( Pentecostal Church), but did not stay but a couple of years. Reading John MacArthur's book about Pentecostals helped correct my doctrine there and I was off to an independent Baptist Church. All this time, I was working in the Church. Works existed in my life not because I knew they had any saving effect, but because I knew that because I was changed, saved, God's Child, I wanted to work in any capacity I could. In other words, there was visible "fruit" in my life and a geniniune love for God in my heart that manifested itself in works. Knowing what I know now, I certainly wished my mom would have been raised Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian, but God often takes the inadequecies and poor life experiences and makes us His in His own way and in His own time and to His Glory--just as Romans 8:28 tells us.

Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
FIRST - I am NOT entering the fray of Matt and Phil.

The topic I am introducing has been bugging me since I came out of Arminianism. As a Baptist I believe I deal with this controversy more than most Presbyterians (although I may be wrong).

I post on a Baptist board with the hopes of bringing the truth of the doctrines of sovereign grace to my fellow Baptists. As you can imagine, it is a tough road to hoe. I made the following post this morning with a person with whom I go toe-to-toe with regularly:

For the record, I do not hold to the view that one must be a Calvinist in order to be saved. When a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ their knowledge of theology is limited. Most only know their sin and that Jesus Christ is able to forgive their sins if they repent and place their faith solely in Christ. As they grow in respect to salvation their theology will often times tell whether their faith was accurate. For instance, if a person claims faith in Christ and then goes on to proclaim that Jesus is not God then their faith was in vain because they have denied an essential truth. They were never saved to begin with. As far as the doctrines of sovereign grace, it depends on how deep they progress into the free will side. I do not believe the foreknowledge view alone will prove their salvation false. But there are depths to the free will view that I believe do prove their salvation false. I suppose that is for another thread.

This is the view I currently hold to. There are many believers out there who are still neophytes. Their knowledge of theology is limited. They have bought into the foreknowledge view since that is what they are exposed to in their churches. But is the foreknowledge view alone enough to prove their confession of faith false? I don't believe so. I have come to appreciate the opinions of many in here so I turn it you, my brothers in Christ for your prayerful responses.

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]

[Edited on 4-20-2006 by caddy]

[Edited on 4-20-2006 by caddy]

Steve, let me tell you why I so enjoy accounts such as yours. The Lord calls us from various places and lifestyles. Sometimes the call is dramatic (i.e. Saul on the Damascus Road) and other times it is over years (such as your testimony). Suffice to say that the Lord will always bring to completion His call of the elect (singular and plural). Glory be to God that those of us here on the PB are able to receive sound doctrine and rich Christian fellowship. Our brother Rich Lenio (Lt. Col., USMC, Okinawa-Japan) is closer than us to areas of the world where the truth we are exposed to is hard to come by. May God receive even more glory by calling sinners to repentance from all corners of the globe.