Featured How do we evangelize the reprobate mind in light of our Leadership? Virtue Signaling?

Discussion in 'Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church' started by PuritanCovenanter, Nov 6, 2019.

  1. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member


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    This is a saddening topic for me. I am watching so many things crumble as we stand to share the Gospel. The foundation of the Gospel is being eroded. There is a problem and it is starting to infiltrate our outreach and message. There is nothing to call people to repent from or back to it seems.

    I do not hate anyone. In fact I am a person who has needed the grace of God more so than most men. I have friends who are close to me that I love dearly that share in single sex marriage. I used the term marriage incorrectly there. That is how it has been adulterated though. In fact they have been better friends to me than some of my Christian friends were during certain times in my life. So know that I am not throwing any stones or wanting to condemn anyone. But it seems we as a Church are neglecting the very foundation from which the Gospel is to be proclaimed. Men are holding the truth of God in unrighteousness and we are turning everyone to their own way. We are losing our grip on the scriptures and becoming pragmatists it seems to me.

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    One thing that seems to be hurtful is that our ordained Leaders are overly silent sometimes. Maybe even complacent? I have watched denominations turn away from the goodness of and righteousness of God for the past 4 decades. They have replaced what the man in the video above noted as true love for a Psuedo-love.

    One thing I have loved about Presbyterianism is how things work out from the bottom (the Church members) to the top (the Sessions and Synods) and from the top to the bottom. May God strengthen and mature our Churches from the top to the bottom and the bottom to the top.

    We are under attack. The Roman Church is under a lot of attack here in Indiana as they have fired School Counselors for violating their contracts and supposedly marrying same sex partners. This is going to the Federal Courts now. A Roman Church can't even rule over its own doctrine or ministry it seems. And the children of that school and Church are openly advocating for some pride issue they should be blushing about.

    We need a new outpouring of God's grace. Let's keep up on loving in a real way and sharing how mankind is in need of real reconciliation to the God of the Holy Scriptures.

    Any recommendations on how we are to do this? I actually appreciate how Ken Smith evangelized and loved Mrs. Butterfield.

    https://rosariabutterfield.com/biography
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  2. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    I just learned a new term today, Virtue Signaling.

    This is new to me. It was used in a rather negative way when I read it.


    noun
    noun: virtue signalling
    1. the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.
      "it's noticeable how often virtue signaling consists of saying you hate things"

    I very rarely ever use the word hate. In fact I can't remember having used it in reference to this topic for sure. And I don't hate anyone. Is it a just accusation against us who may oppose something? What do you guys think?

    This is from wikipedia...

    Are we Virtual Signaler's if we think something is morally wrong and speak up about it based upon what God say's in His Scriptures? How can we prove what is correct and what is wrong if we don't discuss these things? How can we call anyone to repent? Even ourselves? Is Virtual Signaling a bad thing?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  3. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    I think Christians are capable of communicating in ways that are virtue signaling but we should stop it if we are doing it! Virtue signaling as described is wrong, of course. But Christians aren't doing that when speaking about the breaking of God's law. None of our motives are ever pure, but we have to testify anyway. :)
    (In your title and a couple places in the post you wrote "virtual" instead of "virtue." Easy mistake!)
     
  4. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    I fixed them. It is such new terminology to me that I got the words mixed up.

    I saw a reference to it and I had never heard of it. The term itself sounds harmless to me. I can see where it can be used against a person such as calling someone a moralist when they aren't. Do you think the terminology is bad because of a self righteousness attached to it? Is self righteousness attached to the terminology by definition? What would you do if you were told you were virtue signaling? Especially in a case where anyone might want to discuss or Evangelize in the situation in the Original Post?
     
  5. RPEphesian

    RPEphesian Puritan Board Sophomore

    It's only virtue signaling if you disagree with it.

    If you read the RPCNA testimony our denomination values quite highly proclaiming and testifying of all God's truth. Can't sympathize with rejection of virtue, though I can understand hating distasteful ostentation of it.
     
  6. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    Does anyone else get the feeling that this good man who spoke lovingly on the issue of Gay Christian seemed to be regarded as a nuisance or a pot stirrer? What does that say of the faithfulness of a reformed assembly?
     
  7. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    Is affirmation of the plain teaching of scripture self-righteousness? Is a call for widespread adherence to it? Since when I ask?
     
  8. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    Not just that but a slew of my guess progressive PCA elders signed a protest after he spoke saying he was intemperate in his language. See Andy Webb's post. here. https://www.facebook.com/andrewjwebb/posts/10162660761685038

     
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  9. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    If the audacity of a Christianity Today expose’ doesn’t command immediate and widespread responsive action, that tweet certainly should.
     
  10. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    This screams crisis to me. Can somebody explain the theological ignorance apparent in this response? Where did these folks go to seminary and how did they get it so wrong? This is reformed (5 points of TULIP) 101 that I have taught to Sunday schoolers. What is the controversy?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  11. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    Revoice, Side A, Side B, etc.
     
  12. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    That was hypothetical or irony.. I don’t know, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but these are serious and sobering developments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  13. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    I am confused about everything in this post.

    First, the phrase "evangelize the reprobate"? Who are the reprobate, and how do we identify them?
     
  14. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    As I understand it, reprobate means men and women who are given over to their unnatural affections and desires. I do know that the doctrine of reprobation means God gives up on them totally. But I do not believe that is true of the men and women mentioned in Romans 1 necessarily. I believe in the power of the Gospel as Paul spoke about.


    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Does that answer your question Pergy?
     
  15. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    Watch video & check post #8 and consider not only the hostility from the outside to a discerning disciple but also within.
     
  16. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    We can diagnose no living man as reprobate while he still lives and has hope of repentance.
     
  17. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    I think we can discern a Reprobate Mind as the scripture defines it in Romans Chapter 1 Pergy.
     
  18. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Jesus said to Peter Get Behind Me Satan, and yet Peter was ultimately saved. A reprobate mind is different than a person being reprobate.

    Second, what was the virtue-signalling about? What is NS? I don't understand the full context.
     
  19. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks for helping me clear that up Pergy. Virtue Signaling was a term I heard used in a derogatory way against someone in a similar context. It was used negatively and as a criticism of those who want to see what is good promoted. The criticism was done against someone who was not being self righteous.
     
  20. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks Pergy, I added Mind to the Title. That helps a lot.
     
  21. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    “Are we Virtue Signaler's if we think something is morally wrong and speak up about it based upon what God say's in His Scriptures? How can we prove what is correct and what is wrong if we don't discuss these things? How can we call anyone to repent? Even ourselves? Is Virtue Signaling a bad thing?”

    NS is Nashville statement. The guy in the video might be considered a type of (unscriptural according to some) virtue signaler.

     
  22. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

  23. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    I think it could be used to shut down internal discussions. There are assemblies that are unfortunately bound by consensus. With men like Machen we have examples of being on the wrong side of consensus but the right side of scripture. It’s one of many tactics used to shut down debate in an effort to build majority consensus or defy it.
     
  24. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    I have a problem with a brother in Christ using the term virtue signaling to shut down another brother in Christ. If we are scripturally on the right side of an issue what is the fear of drawing lines and making statements. Some people want to keep things vague or unchallenged or simply avoid dealing with the real issue. The fact is assemblies and public opinions will test our words. They will have merit based on God’s truth or man’s truth. There is nothing worse than attempts to shut down declarations and testimonies of biblical truth. This is happening in the public square as well as church assemblies. It may even happen in this forum. When it does people will go elsewhere in hopes of maintaining and preserving a biblically reformed expression and foundation of faith.
     
  25. Susan777

    Susan777 Puritan Board Freshman

    I can’t understand why so many PCA TEs felt this was inflammatory. Am I missing something? Why would so many pastors object to what he said? AJ’s previous thread on this subject seems to have disappeared but I do share his concerns. It’s heartbreaking to watch what is happening even though I have no connection to the denomination now.

    Is theological drift and worldliness inevitable in every denomination? Is it the case that God raises up faithful men who labor for him for a season or several seasons and then are gradually supplanted by men who are in fact unconverted? Well I don’t know much but I do know that Christ will never abandon his people so I cling to that despite my besetting sin of cynicism.
     
  26. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    I live in PA, but I go to a PCA church in New Jersey. I was sad to see some of the Pennsylvania elders sign this list. But I was very relieved to see that no one I know from New Jersey, or don't know for that matter, signed the list.
     
  27. EcclesiaDiscens.

    EcclesiaDiscens. Puritan Board Freshman

    The fact that there's protest over the milquetoast Nashville Statement is a sign that there's a systemic problem in NAPARC, one of which being less adherence to not just the standards, but the biblical foundations for the ideas that underly them and the people who wrote them's convictions.

    This protest of "intemperate language" is a smokescreen for the fact that Mr. Warhurst upset the apple cart and gave an open rebuke.

    The best thing we can do is to cease the "Gospel of Nuance and Winsomeness" and accept that no matter how we couch it, how respectable we are, we're going to be called names and asked for nothing short of full surrender to the ideas and worship of a culture who hates God and is under His judgment.
     
  28. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

  29. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    I am not sure there is a systemic problem in the NAPARC. I admit that I have not been active or concerned for a few years with things related Church wide. But I think I would have heard rumblings about this kind of stuff. I am not sure this is a problem outside of the PCA. The OPC, URCNA, RPCNA, and other denominations don't seem to be having the same problems. In fact I am just learning about the organized effort to undermine the Scriptures and the Standards. Maybe I am just in the dark.

    My denomination has kind of headed off the situation with a report.

    https://www.pcaac.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Overture-11-Fellowship-RPCNA-Perspectives.pdf

    https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...porary+Perspectives+on+Sexual+Orientation.pdf

    https://www.crownandcovenant.com/The_Gospel_Sexual_Orientation_p/ds535.htm

    I read it when it was in its infancy years ago. Some of the guys at my Church go out and share the Gospel at our local Pride Parade. I believe they do it with a lot of grace and not with Bull Horns or signs. The is no need to scream at people even if they want to scream at us.

    I agree mostly with what you are saying. Pastor Warhurst was most respectful and humble before the GA and the Moderator. He didn't seem to be pushy and he yielded to the floor without any apparent frustration when protests arose from the floor. The Moderator gave him the time to present the report and Pastor Warhurst presented with a great demeanor. Thank You Pastor Warhurst.
     
  30. B.L. McDonald

    B.L. McDonald Puritan Board Freshman

    This made my heart heavy. That's a lot of elders on that list. Unbelievable.
     

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