How bad is too bad?

[TimV]

I hate to point out Deborah, but I do think that I could see a time where a woman would be forced to lead as shepherd, due to a complete absence of men, or due to the men being cowardly/disobedient. For instance, if a huge women's group of 30 women got stranded on an island, without a man, would they be committing sin by having a woman pastor? If so, would they not sin in the opposite, by refusing the normal operations of God's church?

It's the same old argument. Can God make a stone too heavy for Himself to move? The whole argument is sinful, since it puts forth a hypothetical situation where one is forced to chose sin that good may abound.

And that particular hypothetical situation is sloppy. It assumes that since there would be no communion or baptism then those women would be forced to sin by not partaking in communion or baptism, and it's simply not the case. That's fairly basic Reformed theology.

 

[NB3K]

Wasn't it considered shameful to have a woman leading them?

Yes it is shameful for men to negate their responsibilties and allowing a woman, (no offense to the submissive wives here) to take what has been ordained for man by God. I always wanted to write the elder's at First Presbyterian Church here in my city and tell them of what I thought of their leadership but I just kept my opinion to myself. I have a habit of shooting myself in the foot while I still have the foot in my mouth.

 

[Mushroom]

I personally view an arminian church (poor interpretation) and a church with a female "pastor" (no interpretation) as two very different things. In fact I hate the term "female pastor" since there is no such thing. There is just someone pretending to be a pastor. How could I in good faith attend such a church, introduce myself to the person who just delivered the sermon, and address her as "Mrs. Smith." I can just imagine how things would go awkwardly down-hill from there.

Or, as my wife experienced, to have a man introduce himself as the "pastor's husband". At my parents' PCUSA church where my father was a ruling elder. She was polite - I would likely not have been as kind.

 

[calgal]

Too bad is a church that claims to adhere to a standard or a confession that in reality is trampled on, mocked and ignored. That is a deal breaker for me.

 

["William The Baptist"]

Wasn't it considered shameful to have a woman leading them?

Yes it is shameful for men to negate their responsibilties and allowing a woman, (no offense to the submissive wives here) to take what has been ordained for man by God. I always wanted to write the elder's at First Presbyterian Church here in my city and tell them of what I thought of their leadership but I just kept my opinion to myself. I have a habit of shooting myself in the foot while I still have the foot in my mouth.

No offense taken (as a lady, not wife... yet!). I find joy in the Lord's designs! I am more offended by feminists who suppress the truth of God and deny His wondrous gift of all the encompasses being a woman... who are professing believers.

 

[AThornquist]

I am more offended by feminists who suppress the truth of God and deny His wondrous gift of all the encompasses being a woman... who are professing believers.

"The people who hate women more than anybody else on this planet are feminists." -Paul Washer in Recovering Biblical Womanhood



Edit: weird.... my bode is croken.

 

[Grimmson]

No, sorry. A church led by a woman pretending to be a pastor is no different in principle than one led by the four-year-old "preacher" that we talked about in another thread.

I have to strongly disagree with that. There a big difference between a four year old and a woman who has studied the scriptures for decades. The difference is that the woman in question would have is more knowledge and wisdom then the four year old. I am not supporting a woman preacher, and it was this major area of disagreement that I got in trouble with from Intervarsity Christian Fellowship because I saw in scripture the role and position of a pastor being that to a man.

In my opinion, whatever its worth, female pastors are actually God’s judgment against the church because of the lack of men trained in scriptures by the church and by childrens' parents. For men, like during the time of the Judges, desire and do what is right by their own eyes. They are not being the leaders that they are called to be, and in the vacuum that created is created by the lack of leadership women have emerged to try to do the work of a man. I find it hard to condemn such women because of the great need that out there, instead the blame must and should go to us men for not doing our job. If a woman is preaching then the question must be asked, “where is the men?” Why was this woman raised up and no man able to expound the word of God? The reason, the judgment of God. I would suggest, instead of bloging and complaining about such women, talk to the woman in question and try to find out if she doing it for power or waiting for a man to take over. If its power then she must be opposed, but if she is waiting for a man to take over that is a different story all together.

We cannot expect as individuals for a church to be perfect in all that they do because sinful people are in the church. The issue of women becoming a pastor has some underlining issues that are going on. One is the break down of the family structure that was established by God at creation; this is one of the reasons why I think there is a lack of women being married and more women in the work place that may not necessarily need to be; which is being reinforced by society, families, and the church. The second issue is the fact that there are more women in the church then men, and at the same time taking up the majority of the leadership positions there of. If the only local protestant church is one with a woman pastor then perhaps instead of not going to the church or going to the next town over then perhaps one should interact with that local church with scripture as long as such a woman is willing; especially if the church is a small chapel church in a isolated community like an Indian Reservation or village somewhere. And you may say that such a church is not a legitimate church if it has a female leader as a pastor, well if that a case then you better stop complaining and in your own denomination or association send a man in that area to take over or set up a church plant. Instead of focusing on how wrong it is, engage the problem and be part of the solution, which requires a man to go forth and be a man; sitting around and complaining about it on a blog or thread is actually being for like the complaining old woman that just wants to complain and not be part of the solution. There is a line one must consider in relation to the regulative principle of worship, in which in the name of worshipping God we try to have our own theology completely perfect but in the process worship God in vain because we as a church and individual ignore the calling of the church in expanding the worship of God to the ends of the Earth through the making of disciples through the preached word. Therefore patience, compassion, respect, understanding, listening, and a wisdom must be practiced in these churches because there a reason why these problems emerged and someone, somewhere, was asleep at the wheel. For we can be part of the problem or be part of the solution, and through prayer and service to the church, have the church be that better church that reflects the testimony of Holy Scripture.

Sorry, I don't buy it. A female pastor can't be the best option one has if you're Reformed.

I have meet plenty of women that has had a better understanding of the scripture then some men in a church, which includes in the biblical languages. If you are in the area and a woman a pastor, if your reformed then see if you can receive a temporary calling (or get someone there). Not attending a church is not option if your reformed, neither in my opinion is driving 50 miles to a church that has male pastor. If there is a need in your area then something needs to be done and complaining behind a key board is not doing much for the local body of Christ in your area. Much that has been given by Christ, much is expected of that man, and if you have a deeper understanding of theology and the gospel then that one must be engaged in the service of the church and his own family (not one or the other) for Christ.

I hate to point out Deborah, but I do think that I could see a time where a woman would be forced to lead as shepherd

Israel wasn’t exactly in a good state then as the writer of Judges made quite clear several times. For remember the context of Deborah:
When Ehud was dead, the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD. (Jdg 4:1 NKJ)
The fact the God spoke through Deborah shows the wickedness of the state of Israel. I think that same case can be made today as well with the wickedness of the church in the western world that the Reformed community participates in today, which is reflected by the absence and respect towards God’s word in the children of whom we would classify as Christian believers today. And thus from their generation, begetting children who would be classified on the mission field as unchurched. It is also reflected by the lack of participation in the life of the church, which results in a strong form of individualism that places the one over the church and thus over the Christ that bought them with his precious blood.

But did she hold an office in the Church?

You can if you assume continuity between the church (Israel) of the Old Testament and the church of the New Testament. What her office? Judge and prophetess. See below:
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. (Jdg 4:4 NKJ)

 

[ZackF]

I would say that a female pastor would be cause for dis-association from a church. The reason being is not so much the issue of the female pastor in and of itself, but rather that a female pastor shows that a church has abandoned the authority of scripture. Same thing as ordaining homosexuals. The issue becomes is the Word of God our final authority in matters of faith or not? If the answer is no, then in my opinion, there is nothing productive coming from that church.

I would take my family and bolt. I would also tell them why. When my wife and I are traveling and looking ahead for places to worship we of course have a ranking system. We look for a NAPARC church first, a reformed baptist church and then a Missouri/Wisconsin Lutheran Church. I've given up on PCUSA because not only are they rankly liberal on doctrinal matters, it is getting hard and harder to find one with a male pastor.

 

[TimV]

I have meet plenty of women that has a better understanding of the scripture then some men in a church, which includes in the biblical languages.

Then you make hierarchy a question of IQ rather than Biblical structure. So, if a cop pulls me over for speeding, I don't have to listen to him if I'm better educated. Or if a wife is smarter than her husband she should rule the household. Or elders should be chosen by the congregations playing Jeopardy.

 

[ZackF]

I have meet plenty of women that has a better understanding of the scripture then some men in a church, which includes in the biblical languages.

Then you make hierarchy a question of IQ rather than Biblical structure. So, if a cop pulls me over for speeding, I don't have to listen to him if I'm better educated. Or if a wife is smarter than her husband she should rule the household. Or elders should be chosen by the congregations playing Jeopardy.

Exactly. Gay "marriage" is another example that is like women's "ordination." In these instances "marriage" and "ordination" describe non-events.

 

[JennyG]

Regulative principle of worship I understand, but what does "normative principle" mean, please?

 

[Mushroom]

I have meet plenty of women that has a better understanding of the scripture then some men in a church, which includes in the biblical languages. If you are in the area and a woman a pastor, if your reformed then see if you can receive a temporary calling (or get someone there). Not attending a church is not option if your reformed, neither in my option is driving 50 miles to a church that has male pastor.

So, since I have a better understanding of spelling and grammar than you, it is an indication that I am qualified to do your job as a teacher? I can assure you that is not true.

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

Regulative principle of worship I understand, but what does "normative principle" mean, please?

As I understand it, regulative allows only that which is commanded, normative allows anything that is not prohibited. I could be wrong.

 

[Andres]

Regulative principle of worship I understand, but what does "normative principle" mean, please?

As I understand it, regulative allows only that which is commanded, normative allows anything that is not prohibited. I could be wrong.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[Edward]

We look for a NAPARC church first,

Unfortunately, discernment is needed even with NAPARC churches.

 

[ZackF]

We look for a NAPARC church first,

Unfortunately, discernment is needed even with NAPARC churches.

That is correct!!! Gotta start somewhere though when you are traveling. I try to plan ahead before our trip or at the least check websites when we get to the hotel. Our situations usually involve just the occasional one off visit anyway.

 

[Goodcheer68]

Just my ... The whole Deborah was a judge means that woman pastors are permissible when necessity dictates falls flat for me. If you follow that logic it would be OK to have a womanizer as a pastor because Samson was a judge. God is pretty clear in who he wants in the position of a pastor.

 

[Andres]

Or elders should be chosen by the congregations playing Jeopardy.

I love the show Jeopardy so that one got me good!

 

["William The Baptist"]

I am more offended by feminists who suppress the truth of God and deny His wondrous gift of all the encompasses being a woman... who are professing believers.

"The people who hate women more than anybody else on this planet are feminists." -Paul Washer in Recovering Biblical Womanhood



Edit: weird.... my bode is croken.

Andrew, thanks for that! I've seen that one before. (but a good refresher... I'm planning to get lunch with female friend of mine who was intrigued when I said something along the lines of professing believing women of the church who submit to feminism fail to submit to God and in essence are saying scripture is not sufficient. ... I may mention this resource to her hehe.)

If you liked Washer, you'll like what Kevin Swanson said at his church. Gender Specific Piety. In the notes I LOL'd when it said, "Gloria Steinem would not like this sermon."

 

[Rufus]

professing believing women of the church who submit to feminism fail to submit to God and in essence are saying scripture is not sufficient.

Which kind of feminism? My grandfather opened a door for a lady once and she refused to walk in because he was a man, he than proceeded to refuse to open the door for a woman ever again .

 

[Grimmson]

So, since I have a better understanding of spelling and grammar than you, it is an indication that I am qualified to do your job as a teacher? I can assure you that is not true.

I am not an English teacher and never was one. I was primarily, in my years of teaching, a math teacher. Would you be more qualified to teach English? Yes, I wouldn’t deny that. Math? Maybe, but not because of the rules of English grammar.

I have meet plenty of women that has a better understanding of the scripture then some men in a church, which includes in the biblical languages.

Then you make hierarchy a question of IQ rather than Biblical structure. .

You obviously did not get my point. It was never based on IQ, but the fact that there are women by the judgment of God that are more qualified knowledgably about scripture and the fact that there are a lack of men who are willing to take on that leadership role as a pastor. The vacuum of male leadership is our fault as men of the church for being lazy in the training up of men, including our kids and ourselves. Instead of complaining about women being up there, we must take on that leadership role and help our sister churches that maybe in such a terrible bind; and this must be done for the sake of love for one another. By the way most reformed churches, like the OPC, require that one get an MDIV degree in order to pastor, so there is an aspect that the one who is preaching should have a certain amount of knowledge before hand, otherwise that person wouldn’t be ordained. Nowhere was I supporting women being pastors, and the reason why I don’t is based from creation as seen from1 Timothy 2:12-13:

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; (ESV)

If you think I support women being pastors then reread my post. If anything, I am saying that these poor women out of Christian charity needs to be saved from the situation that men have placed them in; so that they maybe free to perform the roles that they are called to do. The refusal to do such is part of the problem. I think compassion must be given to such women and freedom given by men taking up their role as men, instead of being dumb weak crybaby-like children.

So, if a cop pulls me over for speeding, I don't have to listen to him if I'm better educated.

No, because the person being male or female is a representative of the state and has the responsibility to carry out the law of the state. In the case of women leadership, the requirement of the pastor is already being violated if men are not being trained or brought in to be a pastor of the church and eventually something has to be done. Someone must take responsibility, otherwise one will have greater chaos in a church. If it is a woman that steps up then men of that church are shamed because of their refusal to do what Christ commands of his church.

Or if a wife is smarter than her husband she should rule the household.

Depends on what you mean by rule. I prefer to think of it as the man leading his wife in love as the head and not as a tyranting king. If a man refuses to listen to his wife as a general rule, especially in areas that she maybe more knowledgeable, then such a man is a fool for not listening to the wisdom of his wife and has pridefully disrespected her mind; showing no love to her as a wife or a sister in Christ.

Or elders should be chosen by the congregations playing Jeopardy.

I don’t seen how this pertains to the conversation; for I am sure you will agree that you would want elders chosen by educated men of the church, who are knowledgeable of the scripture and love the Lord. Not by those that are not; unless your point is to attack congregationalism.

 

[TimV]

You obviously did not get my point. It was never based on IQ, but the fact that there are women by the judgment of God that are more qualified knowledgably about scripture and the fact that there are a lack of men who are willing to take on that leadership role as a pastor.

I did get your point. Whether you realise it or not your point is just another hypothetical case of God making a rock too heavy for Himself to lift. Anyone can make up scenarios where one is forced to chose evil.

 

[Andres]

My grandfather opened a door for a lady once and she refused to walk in because he was a man, he than proceeded to refuse to open the door for a woman ever again

I bet if someone tried to steal that lady's purse, she'd appreciate your grandfather or another man to come to her aid. I bet if she needed a tight jar lid unscrewed, she'd appreciate having a man around. I could go on.

 

[Brandon1]

I think one point of nuance lost in this discussion is what churches ought to do when their denominations begin ordaining women and then begin ordaining homosexuals. And this is not simply a hypothetical discussion, Tim. There are some cases in churches such as the CRC where male and female elders are fighting against homosexual ordination. In some ways, these female elders are more healthy for the church than their male counterparts. This gets to part of what David is saying. This sign does not point to health in the Church, but I would rather have a woman in that office standing up for the Gospel than a man lobbying for homosexual ordination.

Of course you can come back and talk about an idealized world but this is precisely the point. The fact we have "ordained" women shows the sad state of affairs that the church is in, but I would rather have an orthodox woman in leadership than an unorthodox man.

Just for emphasis, I understand the coming objection, "But neither position is right!" David and I both grant that but in some of the Confessional Reformed churches, these issues and dilemmas are real. Perhaps you can say that those in CRC congregations should leave the churches, but I'm not so sure that this is the way forward. These issues point to even more pressing eccleisological question of schism, dissension, etc. Things may be well in our conservative Reformed enclave's (they're actually probably not as healthy was we often think), but in the broader Christian world there are serious problems.

Neither David and I are advocating female ordination, but the fact of the matter is that the issues involved are such that we can identify a church where women are ministers as unhealthy but does not mean that the said church is a synagogue of Satan. Unhealthy? Yes. In need of Reformation? Yes. In apostasy? I want to withhold judgment there.

This doesn't mean that I'm encouraging people to go and join those churches because of what is going on, but I think that we should encourage those who find themselves in these situations to work for the health and well-being of the church. If conservatives are removed for their biblical convictions that is one thing. But I think our Reformed forefathers would want us to seek Reformation & Restoration and endure the persecution and unhealthiness of the Church for Christ's sake in prayer and reliance on the Spirit for Reformation. If we can't agree on how this plays itself out, I think we can together pray that God does bring such a revitalization to his Church.

 

[TimV]

In some ways, these female elders are more healthy for the church than their male counterparts. This gets to part of what David is saying. This sign does not point to health in the Church, but I would rather have a woman in that office standing up for the Gospel than a man lobbying for homosexual ordination.

Nonsense. You're saying thyroid cancer is healthier for the body than liver cancer just because liver cancer is worse.

But I think our Reformed forefathers would want us to seek Reformation & Restoration and endure the persecution and unhealthiness of the Church for Christ's sake in prayer and reliance on the Spirit for Reformation.

Then you should read our Reformed forefather's some time!!! Knox and Luther tolerating a woman Bishop? Even the Catholics hadn't gone that far.

 

[Andres]

The fact we have "ordained" women shows the sad state of affairs that the church is in, but I would rather have an orthodox woman in leadership than an unorthodox man.

I'm with Tim here. You're choosing between two evils. Neither is correct, and neither is "better" than the other. Is it better to be stabbed to death or shot to death? Even the term "orthodox women in leadership" when refering to the church, is a contradiction! Ask any of our beloved, sound sisters here on the board if they'd ever take a pastorate. I'm confident they'd answer with a resounding no.

 

["William The Baptist"]

The fact we have "ordained" women shows the sad state of affairs that the church is in, but I would rather have an orthodox woman in leadership than an unorthodox man.

I'm with Tim here. You're choosing between two evils. Neither is correct, and neither is "better" than the other. Is it better to be stabbed to death or shot to death? Even the term "orthodox women in leadership" when refering to the church, is a contradiction! Ask any of our beloved, sound sisters here on the board if they'd ever take a pastorate. I'm confident they'd answer with a resounding no.

Edit: I even knew that much BEFORE reforming.

 

[JennyG]

I'm with Tim here. You're choosing between two evils. Neither is correct, and neither is "better" than the other. Is it better to be stabbed to death or shot to death?

but maybe that precise argument should be used with caution, however sound the conclusion - evils do in fact vary in degree

 

[Andres]

I'm with Tim here. You're choosing between two evils. Neither is correct, and neither is "better" than the other. Is it better to be stabbed to death or shot to death?

but maybe that precise argument should be used with caution, however sound the conclusion - evils do in fact vary in degree

Yes, evils can vary in degree, but they are all still evils nonetheless. None would ever be acceptable for a child of God.

 

[Zach]

The fact we have "ordained" women shows the sad state of affairs that the church is in, but I would rather have an orthodox woman in leadership than an unorthodox man.

I'm with Tim here. You're choosing between two evils. Neither is correct, and neither is "better" than the other. Is it better to be stabbed to death or shot to death? Even the term "orthodox women in leadership" when refering to the church, is a contradiction! Ask any of our beloved, sound sisters here on the board if they'd ever take a pastorate. I'm confident they'd answer with a resounding no.

A hearty Amen from me too, sir. There's no wiggle room for choosing the lesser of two evils in our theology. If you do, at the end of the day you're just left with evil.

 

[Peairtach]

Even a M'Cheyne was in the Church of Scotland when it contained both Evangelicals and Moderates. I haven't done a study on Moderatism, so couldn't tell you how bad it was, but I don't think it involved any change in the constitution or subscription to the standards.

At some point a declaratory act was introduced whereby office-bearers only had to agree to the Confession with the rider that they accepted "the substance of the Reformed faith". When did that happen?

At some point in her history the CofS ceased to be the true national Church of Scotland, because Christ was rejected as King over His Church.

In the 1960s the CofS accepted women's ordination.

Now ordination of openly homosexual ministers is being accepted.

There comes a point when the rot in a church is so advanced that you have to get out as a testimony to others and for the good of your soul.

Are the prospects for a real reformation in the CoS by an ascendent reformed and evangelical wing more likely now that it is apparent just how far the rot has gone? Hardly. The reformed and evangelicals never reached a renewed ascendency that they hoped for, and now this has happened.

If Babylon in Revelation represents the apostate Church, then these words are relevant to those in Protestant denominations where homosexuality is being accepted as a good thing:

And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast...............Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;(Rev 18:2.....18:4, ESV)

There is evidence that the reformed and evangelicals in mixed denominations are as likely - or more likely - to be infected by the antichrist of liberalism as the other way around.