How about a talk about reprobation?

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Learner

Puritan Board Freshman
I looked at some former discussions on this topic.Maybe it's time to bring it up again.Most of you are in Reformed churches.Have you ever heard a message devoted to this doctrine?Or was it merely mentioned in a passing fashion(no
pun intented)?
Do you believe in double predestination?Is it "double or nothing?"Does God desire that the reprobate turn to Him?
We know that he does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked,but does that infer(imply?I get them confused)that He
wants to save them?
Would an A.W.Pink (not many of his caliber walking around)be welcome into even so-called "staunchly reformed"
churches today?That is,knowing what he wrote on this subject in his "Sov.of God" classic?Despite what Iain Murray
contends Pink still held to those beliefs late in his life.("The Sov.of God"was written in 1918).
I'm just tossing this ball out there.I'll step back and listen in.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
[quote:27a776f389][i:27a776f389]Originally posted by Learner[/i:27a776f389]
I looked at some former discussions on this topic.Maybe it's time to bring it up again.Most of you are in Reformed churches.Have you ever heard a message devoted to this doctrine?Or was it merely mentioned in a passing fashion(no
pun intented)?
[/quote:27a776f389]
I've never heard a topical sermon on it but I have heard expository sermons when the text is talking about it (i.e Romans 9).
[quote:27a776f389]
Do you believe in double predestination?Is it "double or nothing?" [/quote:27a776f389]
Can it be any other way? If you choose some, you obviously have not chosen the others.
[quote:27a776f389]
Does God desire that the reprobate turn to Him?
We know that he does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked,but does that infer(imply?I get them confused)that He
wants to save them?[/quote:27a776f389]
God requires in His Word that the reprobate turn to Him and promises salvation unto to all who will believe. But he has chosen not to save them because in His good pleasure He has passed them over. Their inability to repent and believe does not negate their responsibility to repent and believe.
[quote:27a776f389]
Would an A.W.Pink (not many of his caliber walking around)be welcome into even so-called "staunchly reformed"
churches today?[/quote:27a776f389]
I don't think my church would have a problem with Pink preaching there so long as the Presbytery approved.
 

Christopher

Puritan Board Freshman
I would second what sailor has said and further add that when He passes over them it is not a passive "whops I missed you so now you go to hell" but he created these folks for that purpose, His glory in their damnation. They are "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." From eternity passed they were predestined for damnation and in history God hardens them to Himself by turning them over to their sinful desires which they gladly accept and would have it no other way. Again, although they were made to be vessels for wrath, the Bible strictly warns against attributing sinful responsibility on God for their damnation, it is man's alone.
 

Ianterrell

Puritan Board Sophomore
I think what has been said by Patrick and Chris is right on the money. I think it helps to understand God's decree. God has ordained the ends and the means the ends. Secondly we must understand our position as creatures. [b:9d9f448d93]We[/b:9d9f448d93] do not no who the vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy are necessarily we must be faithful in what we do know that the gospel of God is the power of salvation to those who believe.
 

raderag

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:b980043114][i:b980043114]Originally posted by Learner[/i:b980043114]
Have you ever heard a message devoted to this doctrine?Or was it merely mentioned in a passing fashion(no
pun intented)? [/quote:b980043114]

Funny, that is what last weeks sermon was about.

The Pastor talked about Rom 8 and what is wrong with the message that "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for you."

My take on it is that God doesn't appreciate that the reprobate hate Him, and disobey them, but doesn't plan on converting them.

I think that is similiar to the two wills by Pink.
 

Irishcat922

Puritan Board Sophomore
The Lord hath made all things for himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4
 

Preach

Puritan Board Sophomore
Everything that has been stated so far seems to be in line with the Scriptures. But let us get to the heart of the issue. Does God desire every individual sinner to be saved? I am not talking about the decree from eternity within the counsel of the ontological Trinity. I am talking about the free offer of the Gospel. Does God set the free offer of the Gosperl to sinners in general, or to individuals? If He does set it forth to individuals, in what way is it free?
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
[quote:75189197f1][i:75189197f1]Originally posted by Preach[/i:75189197f1]
Everything that has been stated so far seems to be in line with the Scriptures. But let us get to the heart of the issue. Does God desire every individual sinner to be saved? I am not talking about the decree from eternity within the counsel of the ontological Trinity. I am talking about the free offer of the Gospel. Does God set the free offer of the Gosperl to sinners in general, or to individuals? If He does set it forth to individuals, in what way is it free? [/quote:75189197f1]
There are no conflicting desires in God. If God desired to saved teh reprobate then they would be saved. The Gospel is a fact . If they believe they will be saved. If they come to Christ, he will receive them. These are promises and are true regardless of the response of the hearer. Once the reprobate hears them he is obligated to respond in faith just as the elect are.
 

satz

Puritan Board Senior
i remember reading an article on the web ( i think it was by john piper) where the author suggested that God desires that all men be saved but has decreed that only some be saved. What would you say to that?


ps. its been a while since i read it so if i have misrepresented the article , my apologies!
 

KayJay

Puritan Board Freshman
Emme, no you haven't misrepresented the article. I was actually about to post and ask what people thought about it...(I hope I haven't already and forgot).

Yep - the article is by John Piper entitled "Are there Two Wills in God?" and it can be accessed from monergism

Basically the idea Piper portrays is that God wants all men to be saved but he also desires His own glory (and so he must demonstrate mercy AND justice)...the way I understood it was that though He desired both when it comes down to it He couldn't have both so the desire for His own glory wins out...Piper doesn't say it but that is the sense I come away with. But isn't that what "common grace" is all about anyway? Maybe I'm way off...this topic is new and confusing to me so correct me if I'm wrong as graciously as you can! :)

But I must say - for the most part I do love Piper though I don't really agree with the article...I don't think...it has been a while since I read it.

[Edited on 5-20-2004 by KayJay]
 

Ianterrell

Puritan Board Sophomore
Piper covers this topic a little more extensively in the appendix titled "Are there two wills in God" in his book [i:8723201570]Desiring God[/i:8723201570].

There is the revealed will "I do not desire the death of the sinner" and the decreed objects of wrath. Are there complexities in the heart of God? God took pleasure in bruising his son, and yet he must have been enraged at the sins of those who slayed the perfect man. Christ's blood must have spoke like Abel's blood. It's difficult attain understanding here; God's thoughts are not our thoughts.
 

Dan....

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:1164aaba09]
I am talking about the free offer of the Gospel. Does God set the free offer of the Gosperl to sinners in general, or to individuals? If He does set it forth to individuals, in what way is it free?
[/quote:1164aaba09]

Here is a good article on this topic:

http://www.opc.org/GA/free_offer.html
 

Ranger

Puritan Board Freshman
Rom. 11:7 "The chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened."

I'll be overly simplistic, but I think it's clear that they didn't harden themselves.
 

JWJ

Puritan Board Freshman
Piper is Wrong!

I love John Piper. But his article and illustrations on this topic of Two Wills in God is flawed! Piper, like many others on this topic, make exegetical and hermeutical blunders. These blunders result in making God out to be a man-- a finite being with complex ambivalent emotions and desires. Moreover, these blunders result in or are the result of the erroneous doctrine of common grace.

I would highly recommend Matthew's book on the Two Wills of God.


Jim
 

blhowes

Puritan Board Professor
I was just wondering if anybody else ever grapples with this teaching? I'm not talking about questioning God about it, but just about working on internalizing and understanding it in light of the sinner's accountability before God for his sins.

Have you ever tried to explain it to somebody who doesn't want to see the teaching from the scriptures? Have you been able to explain it in a way that made sense to them, or did you just tell them that its in the scriptures and refer them to Romans 9:20 - "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?..."

Bob
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Bob, its hard to talk to people who won't let the Scriptures speak for themselves. I just focus on the fact that all are guilty, so who are we to complain when God spares some and grants justice to others? It's his right as the righteous Judge to decide. We are in no position to judge Him.
 

blhowes

Puritan Board Professor
Patrick,
That makes sense. I guess its no different than any other doctrine (sin, hell, etc.) that people don't want to hear. Bottom line is we just have to "tell it like it is".

Having said that, its still a challenge to me, though reading it and believing it, to articulate it internally (and eventually externally) how man is totally unable, by God's design, to come to salvation, yet he's responsible and accountable for his sins. I'm glad the truths in the scriptures aren't contingent upon my depraved understanding.

Bob
 

Ianterrell

Puritan Board Sophomore
The problem is based on our inferences. The tension between God's will being done comprising of our wills is difficult. You should read the WCF sections on providence they may help.
 

Learner

Puritan Board Freshman
The Plot Thickens...

Does anyone agree with the Minority Report written by
William Young and Floyd E.Hamilton?It was in response to "The Free Offer of the Gospel"article.The whole situation came up to discredit Gordon Clark and possibly bar him from the ministry.He was not defrocked but chose to leave the O.P.C. rather than deal with the Van Till types who espoused
their particular philosophy.Needless to say I am in favor of the Minority Report's stance.Check out Dan Harris's post for the site to look at both articles.
 

Learner

Puritan Board Freshman
A Lot of Double-Talk in the M.R.

Look with new eyes at that Majority Report.Contradictions abound.God is at cross-purposes with Himself if we are to believe the authors.Did you read their interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 ?The word "you"does not refer to the elect ?There is an Arminianizing going on in that report.John Owen and some other Puritans would have refuted it.
 

irishcalvinist

Inactive User
Sermons on the Doctrine of Reprobation...

[size=16:f7bf3be205]Reprobation is a most despised and hated doctrine today. I think we hear so little about the doctrine of reprobation because it completely contradicts the idea of God having a desire or will to save the reprobate.
Our minister recently preached a number of sermons on the subject:

'Jacob Elected and Esau Reprobated'
http://www.cprf.co.uk/audio/m3u/romans9c.m3u
'God's Hatred of Esau'
http://www.cprf.co.uk/audio/m3u/romans9d.m3u
'Is God's Reprobation Unrighteous?'
http://www.cprf.co.uk/audio/m3u/romans9f.m3u[/size:f7bf3be205]
 

smhbbag

Puritan Board Senior
Irishcalvinist:

listened to all three sermons last night - two big thumbs up on all of them. Very well done

(Not sure what thumbs up means over there - hope it's nothing too foul :lol: )

:thumbup: :thumbup:
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Irish Calvinist does your pastor believe in particular grace?, and do you think that effects ones doctrine of the reprobate?

God bless VanVos
 

irishcalvinist

Inactive User
Calvin versus Pighius: Does God desire to save the reprobate

[size=16:566acc6261]smhbbag:

Yes. Thank God for a Godly Minister in these dark days of apostasy. Before becoming a member of the Church here in N. Ireland, I had never heard a sermon on reprobation... and such an unhealthy and unbalanced diet is not good for the child of God. If you enjoyed those three... I would highly recommend a speech our minster gave on 'Calvin versus Pighius: Does God desire to save the reprobate?' Best speech I ever heard on the subject... I've listned to it a dozen times myself.

http://www.cprf.co.uk/audio/m3u/pighius.m3u

VanVos:

Yes we believe in 'particular grace' over against the error of 'common grace.' Ministers dont preach on reprobation anymore because it runs contrary to the idea of God having an earnest desire and love for the reprobate... so how can they preach that God reprobated and hated certain ones from eternity past and created them merely for His own glory through their eternal death and destruction? The one runs contrary to the other. How else does one explain why it is almost impossible to find sermons on reprobation in reformed churches? And usually when one finds such a very rare sermon... apologies abound. What are your thoughts?

Reformed in Him,

Sean-[/size:566acc6261]
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
I'm satisfied with this:

[quote:a89598f761="WCF 3.7-8"]VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[/quote:a89598f761]

But then again, you weren't surprised at that, were you? :bs2:
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
Interestingly enough, when Particular Baptists were "penning" a copy of the Savoy Declaration for the 1689 Confession, they decided, for whatever reason, to leave out reprobation altogether.
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Re: Calvin versus Pighius: Does God desire to save the repro

[quote:9cab8423af]

VanVos:

Yes we believe in 'particular grace' over against the error of 'common grace.' Ministers dont preach on reprobation anymore because it runs contrary to the idea of God having an earnest desire and love for the reprobate... so how can they preach that God reprobated and hated certain ones from eternity past and created them merely for His own glory through their eternal death and destruction? The one runs contrary to the other. How else does one explain why it is almost impossible to find sermons on reprobation in reformed churches? And usually when one finds such a very rare sermon... apologies abound. What are your thoughts?

Reformed in Him,

Sean [/quote:9cab8423af]

I think particular grace is the right position, but what do you do with verses like Deut 10:18, do you interpret that as particular grace inlight of verse 15. Also I'm not sure about Ezk 18:23,32.

VanVos

P.S. Actually I believe Matthew McMahon (webmaster) did some good work on this. http://www.apuritansmind.com/CD/TwoWillsBookCD.htm
 
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