Homosexuality as Judgment

[turmeric]

Here is something interesting that a minister posted in another forum, hopefully he will respond here.

Sex is like a living parable: when we engage in sex within a different context, we are creating a picture or image that stands in opposition to the one instituted by God. In short, when we engage in sex outside the covenantal relationship of marriage, we present a picture of a torn humanity seeking to replace closeness with God with the creativity of his own mind. This is why the language of Romans 1:24-26 is so shocking in the Greek: Paul is essentially saying that homosexuality is, itself, a judgment from God to depict in physical terms the spiritual counterfeit of mankind’s idolatry. But unnatural heterosexual relationships are just as vile in their depiction of man’s rebellion and defection from a right Creator/creature relationship with God.

If I were to put this argument to a homosexual (and I agree with it BTW) I might get this response;

If being gay is a judgment for idolatry, why doesn't God strike someone like Christopher Hitchens with it - why does it happen to very young children, often in the context of abuse? What idol have they worshiped as opposed to other children?

I'd like more insight on this subject, there's plenty of "anti-gay" Christian stuff out there to read, but little theological explanation. Thanks!

 

[Confessor]

I'm pretty sure that quote was from Ben's (Sola Scriptura) thread regarding the perniciousness of p0rnography.

As for an answer, I would say that judgment for individual sins is one possible, but not the only, reason for homosexuality.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I'd like more insight on this subject, there's plenty of "anti-gay" Christian stuff out there to read, but little theological explanation. Thanks!

Meg -

I'm kind of busy tonight (going over my sermon for tomorrow)...

What type of insight are you wanting on the subject?

 

[turmeric]

Thanks, Ben. I have a lot of psychological info - the bad relationship w/parent of the same sex type of thing, the role of abuse etc. How does that fit with what Scripture says; that it's a judgment for idolatry? I like what you said that I quoted - that makes sense and I've never heard it explained that way, or even explained at all, really. Just wanted you to amplify your thoughts a bit. If you wish, we could move this to a members-only forum.

 

[ZackF]

Thanks, Ben. I have a lot of psychological info - the bad relationship w/parent of the same sex type of thing, the role of abuse etc. How does that fit with what Scripture says; that it's a judgment for idolatry? I like what you said that I quoted - that makes sense and I've never heard it explained that way, or even explained at all, really. Just wanted you to amplify your thoughts a bit. If you wish, we could move this to a members-only forum.

Why do homosexual acts have to be punishment for idolatry? Can't they just be a form of idolatry. The Romans list of sins doesn't seem to single out homosexuality. I don't get the connection your quote is making.

 

[Matthias]

Homosexuality as a judgment is a punishment upon a nation or a people.

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (Romans 1:21-32)

Sodom was not judged because of the homosexuality practiced there.

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good” (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

The sins of Sodom are listed here, and we could certainly include homosexuality within the category of an “abomination” committed before God, but what came first? Romans the 1st Chapter teaches us that God gives up men and women to vile affections because of their pride, their vain imaginations and their wicked worship practices. Sodom became a den of homosexuality because of their sins of pride, idleness, abundance, greedy neglect, and haughtiness. Homosexuality was judgment. God took them away in his own time, after He had turned them over to vile affections and a reprobate mind. The problem here is that people are confusing punishment with judgment.

The punishment for Sodom’s sins was utter destruction. The judgment for their sins was that they were turned over to vile affections and to a reprobate mind which evidenced itself in their homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sign that the Lords wrath and punishment is coming, soon.

 

[ZackF]

Homosexuality is a sign that the Lords wrath and punishment is coming, soon.[/B]

Well. Okay I guess. But it is still in the string of sins along with back talking my old man. It is difficult to single homosexuality out even if it is there. I think some people do single it out because most people are not homosexual but fit rather nicely somewhere else on the wrath menu.

 

[Matthias]

Homosexuality is a sign that the Lords wrath and punishment is coming, soon.[/B]

Well. Okay I guess. But it is still in the string of sins along with back talking my old man. It is difficult to single homosexuality out even if it is there. I think some people do single it out because most people are not homosexual but fit rather nicely somewhere else on the wrath menu.

It is not in the same string of sins. The scriptures make a clear distinction between sins, and homosexuality as EVIDENCE of reprobation. Re-read Romans Chapter 1 again closely. Because of sins, God gave them up to vile affections. Again, its judgment and evidence of reprobation. Although it is a sin, it is clearly different from other sins in the fact that is also the ultimate in God's turning away from a people.

 

[ZackF]

Homosexuality is a sign that the Lords wrath and punishment is coming, soon.[/B]

Well. Okay I guess. But it is still in the string of sins along with back talking my old man. It is difficult to single homosexuality out even if it is there. I think some people do single it out because most people are not homosexual but fit rather nicely somewhere else on the wrath menu.

It is not in the same string of sins. The scriptures make a clear distinction between sins, and homosexuality as EVIDENCE of reprobation. Re-read Romans Chapter 1 again closely. Because of sins, God gave them up to vile affections. Again, its judgment and evidence of reprobation. Although it is a sin, it is clearly different from other sins in the fact that is also the ultimate in God's turning away from a people.

I will study the passage in more detail as I understand the "giving over" transition but I don't see how, yet anyway, that what follows the verse about homosexuality (27) is to be understood in a different category.

 

[Marno]

The title of this thread led my thoughts in a different direction than the one evidently meant. I have often said that judgment falls on a nation not because of homosexuality (though homosexuality is certainly a sin and an abomination), but that homosexuality in the nation is the judgment. And worse is yet to come.

Not a happy thought, but one in accord with Scripture, I think (Romans 1 and 2).