Historicist Postmillennialism and the "when" of the millennium

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by pslagle2012, Sep 20, 2017.

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  1. pslagle2012

    pslagle2012 Puritan Board Freshman

    I am postmillennial and interested in historicism. I have come across a few historicists who date set the timing of the millennium and the end, I believe by estimating the fall of the papacy based on the 1260 day-years of the little horn. The problem is those I read date the millennium to around the year 2000.

    Is there a model of postmil historicism that doesn't have this tendency of date setting and if so what are some of those alternative views?
     
  2. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I thought post mil viewpoint had same starting date as A mil, at His ascension , but that they view the church ushering the fullness of it in throughout history more and more?
     
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Different varieties of postmil. Also, for a while most postmil were amil were more or less the same thing.
     
  4. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Some do, and some don't.

    Technically, Postmills believe in a future time for the start of the millennium, where Amills think we are now living in the millennium. But, some people called Postmills agree with the Amills that we are now living in the millennium. I guess they are technically Amills who have an optimistic view of the future success of the Kingdom on earth. I think Amillennialism is a poor name because it means no-millennium whereas both views believe in a millennium. Amills (not all) tend to be very pessimistic about the future success of the Gospel.

    Personally, I believe we may have thousands of years before the end. My eyes cry, literally, for those that have a remnant mentality and no hope for the triumph of the One to whom all power and authority is given. I liken them to the ten spies (always the majority view) who did not believe that they could take the promised land.

    Well, that's enough for now.
     
  5. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I see the Lord active in and through His own people always in History, but that there will also be a really dark time coming upon this earth, but that the Lord Jesus shall return to establish His kingdom in full upon this Earth and paradise restored time.
     
  6. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Think that the main difference would be that post mils would see the church taking over to some extent , and transforming culture/society, while A Mils would tend to see it becoming worse until the second coming of Christ.
     
  7. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    How many books by postmillennialists have you read? They would dispel a lot of your misconceptions. The church doesn't take over. The "church" isn't the same thing as "godly culture."
     
  8. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    My main reading has been those who describe a reconstructionism/dominion theology, by which they would see God working through the church in ways that would have us to make culture and society line up with the rules and laws of God.
     
  9. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    God's working through the church is not the same thing as The Church Taking Over. The latter makes it sound like the Inquisition.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Some of those who advocate the church have dominion and setting up the Kingdom in order for Jesus to return do sound like soldiers for Christ.
     
  11. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm a soldier for Christ.

    But unless you are talking about people saying the church should militarily take over city hall. If you believe postmils teach that, then you need to provide documentary evidence.
     
  12. Ben Zartman

    Ben Zartman Puritan Board Freshman

    I think one problem is that people don't see that the Church can triumph even while the world grows darker. They think the Church must somehow have the upper hand visibly, rather than overcoming spiritually. As the world's population increases, God is gathering in His elect--there are more sinners born every day, but God is adding to His church daily such as should be saved. In fact, the Church is triumphing even now as her Lord sustains and guides her and providentially disposes all events.
    I suppose that makes me a pessimistic optimist amillennial. The world grows darker, the Church is built notwithstanding, and God will be glorified in the end. "Even so come, Lord Jesus."
     
  13. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    It's remarkable that we're 12 posts into the thread and no one has even attempted to answer the original post.
    I have not studied historicism thoroughly, but there are some notable historicists ministering today, including W. J. Mencarow, Steven Dilday, and Rob McCurley. I have a hard time believing that any of these men have adopted their position without giving due weight to questions like this; so, to the question, "Is there a model of postmil historicism that doesn't have this tendency of date setting and if so what are some of those alternative views?" I'm going to say, probably.

    This sermon may be of use to you regarding the 1260 days: 1260 Days of Revelation, W. J. Mencarow.

    I wish I could give a more helpful response than that, but perhaps I've pointed you in the right direction.
     
  14. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I am speaking here about reconstructionists/Dominion theology, like Kingdom Now.
     
  15. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Dominion theology is a "scare term," so I don't consider it in the discussion. No respectable Reconstructionist calls himself "Kingdom Now" (also a scare term). Which recon authors have you read and what about their specific theses made you think they want to get the church to take over?
     
  16. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I have read mainly those such as Gary North, and Bishop Paulk.
     
  17. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Brother, if you put the two of those men in the same category, then you do not understand one or either of them. Further, if you think that they (whether considered separately or together) are a good representation of Reconstructionism as a whole, then you are seriously mistaken, and you don't understand Reconstructionism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  18. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

  19. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I don't know who Paulk is, but where did Gary North say the Church will "take over?" Sure, he says the godly will exercise more influence, but that's a somewhat different claim.
     
  20. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    North's talks on the Centrality of the Church do a great job on explaining what he is getting at. In fact, they are magnificent and he corrects errors that would later be prominent among Rushdoony's disciples.
    http://www.wordmp3.com/speakers/profile.aspx?id=192
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Anyway, recons don't necessarily believe in "Kingdom, Now." Gary North makes clear in Dominion and Common Grace that God gives the covenant-breakers enough rope to hang themselves. We don't believe in Kingdom Now because sometimes the covenant-breakers don't have enough rope yet.
     
  22. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I am very open to understanding this issue more, as the ones have heard and read seemed to see the Lord using the Church to set up the Kingdom here on earth in full over a long period of time.
     
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Is there any difference between how Calvinists see Christians become involved in culture and having Christ in the arts/music/etc?
     
  24. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

  25. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Which one sees the Lord as setting up the Mosaic law as the civil authority for the government then?
     
  26. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Why don't we start a different thread on Theonomy and Christian Reconstructionism? The original post has nothing to do with these issues, and I think the way that this thread has been hijacked is very disrespectful to Patrick (pslagle2012), who had a very specific question which has not yet been answered.
     
  27. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I did not mean to hijack this thread, as was trying to get a better handle on postmil, and those 2 viewpoints that seem to be part of it.
     
  28. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Right--the thing to do is to post a new thread in which you can ask your questions.
     
  29. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    That's not the point, and North doesn't spend all that much time on it. That's very small in the theocratic program. North spends the bulk of his time talking about the Covenantal Model.
     
  30. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Back to the OP. I think answering it is almost impossible. One of the difficulties of historicist hermeneutics is that it has to update the charts every few generations. The French Revolution and Napoleon are case in point. The papacy was fairly weak and lame after that--and well still is, at least politically.

    And it was hard to make the claim that the Pope was the Antichrist during the time of Hitler and Stalin.
     
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