Help!I'm being John 3:sixteened to death!

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by Learner, Apr 29, 2004.

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  1. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    Well,not really.But you have to admit that it got your collective attention.Right?
    I am dealing with a co-worker.Let's call him Alvin.He
    maintains that he is a believer.I know many Arminians are true Christians.I was for a long time.However,I have been
    writing him letters with ample scriptural support.Yet he has been condescending and dismissive because he had a year of Bible school.That and the idea that I am a heretic.
    That reminds me.I attended a black church on Wednesday
    nights for more than 2 years(definately Arminian).They had
    participatory Bible studies with several hundred in attendance.I disagreed with the Pastor's inversion of the meaning of Romans chapters 8&9.I tried to be respectful but stood my ground when he took liberties with the texts.For instance he summarized Romans 9,after an exchange with me.He said:"In other words it's all up to us."Huh?!A woman member I met on the street the very next day told me that
    "Pastor went to seminary."Then distainfully looking at me-"He
    didn't study at no library!"
    Anyway,back to the topic.I have been writing him letters
    discussing the biblical stance on various doctrines that most mainstream Christians would take offence at.I mean I am
    dealing with the Finney types.He never has written me back.
    I have encouraged him to do so.I have asked pointed questions in my papers.Nothing.Face-to face is a mess.He reverts to sentimentality,philosophy and most importantly...
    lots of volume.Lately he has been whacking me with John 3:16 without let-up.I have responded in written form with the
    A.W.Pink type of method(in his book "The Sovereignty of God").He is aghast.He thinks I am off my rocker.I have never mentioned the words "Calvinism","Calvin","Reformed","The
    Doctrines of Grace",etc.But in our latest brief person-to-person he proclaimed:"You are a Tulip man!"Duh.Quite a discovery for him.Then he proceeds to say that I am a member of the "Calvinist Cult".He must have the latest info.I
    am just like the JW's he maintains because I believe in election.They distort John 1:1 and we of the C.C.do violence to John 3:16.
    This man is incredible.Through all of this I am hardly able to get a word in edge-wise.He never answers a question just
    demands answers to his (LOUDLY of course).He is so arrogant.He knows so little and struts about with his feeble
    understanding.He pities me!I am lost in his estimation.Since
    he will not allow a JW to speak to him,he will do the same with me.He still accepts my written material though.
    So I follow a man John Calvin,not the Bible.Calvinists don't get their beliefs from the Bible,but from erring men like Augustine and Calvin who are in Hell now.Incredible.
    I better end this entry soon.I am getting this off my chest in this manner.Yes,I need to pray more for wisdom.Does anyone have a similar experience to relate?
     
  2. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    I forgot to mention...

    He's a big fan of Jack Chick.He's been giving out those tracts.Some are replete with a demon in Hell laughing and
    seeming in charge.You know how messed-up those"publications "are.
     
  3. Craig

    Craig Puritan Board Senior

    Just have your friend look at the context of John 3:16. That verse alone still doesn't support his ideas. It states that those who believe won't perish...it says nothing of man's natural state...just that those who believe won't perish.

    I would have him go to the beginning of the chapter and note that Jesus is talking with Nicodemus...and emphasize what Nicodemus was astonished at:

    [quote:25fa2d39a0]
    3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kindgom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and th Spirit he cannot enter into the kindgom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh., and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going' so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
    [/quote:25fa2d39a0]

    [Edited on 4-29-2004 by Craig]

    [Edited on 4-29-2004 by Craig]
     
  4. Irishcat922

    Irishcat922 Puritan Board Sophomore

    brother. I feel for you it is a constant battle. I get people all the time who think I'm nuts because i believe in the Authority of God's Word, or the Soveriegnty of God, or Election. It is amazing to me that most people won't even consider honestly looking at the scriptures. We are in a war, of that I have no doubt, and the only thing we can do is continue to stand for the truth and pray that the eyes of their understanding might be opened. The great thing is that The Lord has granted us a few glimpses of his Majestic truth. But we are still in process. Our knowledge is so far from being perfect, all we can do is teach what we have received.
    The Apostle reminds us.Who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not recieve? 1 Cor 4:7a I think we must take what the Lord gives us and just try to be faithful with that. That's all we can do.
     
  5. Alan

    Alan Inactive User

    I know how you feel, believe me. I was born and raised in Fudamentalist Baptist circles, which are rarely Calvinist. Most attack the doctrines. About five years ago, the Lord reformed my doctrine, and it revolutionized my walk with Him. I continued in the Fundy church I attended, but after a while, I just became more and more grieved and critical of what was being taught. Eventually I left and began visiting a Reformed Baptist church. I fell in love with it. My wife attended with me for a few months, probably hoping this was just a faze or something. She continues to reject the Bible's teaching on this, and so eventually she said that she couldn't go there in good conscience anymore. Unfortunately, I can no longer go back to her church in good conscience either, so we worship at different churches. It was a bit awkward for a while, but at this point, it has become accepted.

    Not as bad as my wife being on a different page, but still troubling to me is the fact that my parents believe that I am a heretic. This coming from people who attend a Jack Hyles-protege church which teaches easy believism and King James onlyism.

    The truth about God's election is not popular. Sometimes it's not worth arguing about though, and perhaps you would be wise not to cast pearls before swine (Alvin).

    My :wr50:

    Alan
     
  6. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    Thanks Alan,Sean and Gregg.Today there was a ray of hope.Yesterday he mentioned that "Spurgeon preached
    against Calvinism."Well,hey!I love Mr.Spurgeon.I started a
    Spurgeon quote thread a few days ago on this board."Alvin"
    knows Spurgeon about as well as he does Scripture.I handed
    him 12 pages of C.H.S's sermons.He was most definately a Doctrines of Grace man.I mean The Bible should count much
    more than the words of even a godly man.I gave "Alvin"
    hundreds of verses handwritten on various themes.But if
    these Spurgeon quotes might make him take a look at his jaundiced view and actually propel him into the word seriously,then it has been worth it.(By the way,I reread this
    entry.I gave him 12 pages of extracts).I'll let you all know how he reacts on Monday.If there is no change for the better
    than I will follow the advice of not casting my pearls before swine.
     
  7. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    Mistake

    Oops,sorry Craig!
     
  8. Len

    Len Puritan Board Freshman

    "Yesterday he mentioned that "Spurgeon preached
    against Calvinism."

    (Sorry, I'm not high-speed, low-drag enough to do the fancy quotes! :D )

    Sounds like he might have gotten hold of Dave Hunt's [u:3e851d689e]What Love is This?[/u:3e851d689e] As far as I know he's the only one who has claimed in public or in print that Spurgeon did not support the idea of limited atonement. Of course anyone familiar with Spurgeon knows this isn't the case, but it kind of puts you in the situation of arguing with someone who is obviously clueless. I hope he benefits from the material you gave him. And if he has got a hold of Dave Hunt's book you can send him to www.whatloveisthis.com. Don't know that he has, but like I said Hunt's the only one I've ever heard make that claim.
     
  9. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    I think there are a number of Fundamentalists and
    independents running around that think Spurgeon wasn't
    really a Calvinist.They have some of his books which are probably gathering dust.
    On the A.W.Pink quote thread I used a line he said regarding those who call him the "beloved Spurgeon".They
    would despise his faithful preaching.They have neutered
    Spurgeon in their minds.They regard him like they would D.L.Moody.By the way,I can't understand why Spurgeon
    allowed moody to preach at the Met.Tab.I concur with John
    Kennedy the Scottish evangelist on the Moody/Sankey
    campaigns.He writes of "hyper-evangelism".
     
  10. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    Craig,
    I would stay away from these secondary verses. Take control of the conversation. Start w/ the doctrine of God and work toward the topic of sovereignty and it's exact meaning.

    If he refuses to listen, move on. Why become frustrated; God isn't!
     
  11. Craig

    Craig Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:d5b8a7260a]
    Oops,sorry Craig!
    [/quote:d5b8a7260a]
    No problem. My father in law still calls me "Gregg"...I always answer to it :)
     
  12. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    I found an article on Phil Johnson's website after I made my last post here.It's by Alan Maben.The piece is called:"Are
    You Sure You Like Spurgeon?. Among other things he says that C.H.S. is "considered a successful and 'safe' example of
    a 'non-theological' ministry.His works are recommended as a
    means to lead many aspiring pastors into developing their own successful ministries.His 'Lectures to My Students' are
    often used for this purpose,emphasing the 'practical' aspects
    of evangelism.But while the form of Spurgeon's successful preaching is often studied by would-be pastors,the content
    of this Christian giant's preaching and teaching is often ignored.Rather Spurgeon is popularly thought to have heartily approved of the same theology that is presently dominating American culture:Arminianism."

    And there is more good stuff.Just read it.
     
  13. CalsFarmer

    CalsFarmer Puritan Board Freshman

    John 3:16'd to Death!!!

    Hi Learner,

    My friend I can certainly sympathize with you. Sounds like your friend is Church of Christ maybe? I am going through my
    own difficulties only this one is my HUSBAND. I tried for three years after we were married to be a nice little Church of Christer BUT after some order problems in worship I headed for the hills back to the good old PCA.

    Heres what my experiecnce has taught me:

    These types are about CONTROL while telling you they have none. These days it seems the order of things has certainly been reversed; by that I mean any group that advocates ORDER, SYSTEMS, DISCIPLINE is looked upon as a cult. When in reality, the cult is a form of mind control. Calvinism says here are ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES, decide for yourself. Armininism says here are the facts as I present them, believe what I tell you to believe.

    Of course people have not learned how to think so its easier for them to believe what someone tells them to believe. Honey these folks are STUCK IN THE MUD.

    Heres what happens when you try to reason with them: YOU CAN'T because they always start out with the premise as the conclusion, their reasoning goes in circles. Logic is linear. Do some research on logic on the net and you can get some really GREAT ideas on how to talk to these people.

    I have also found out that these types are very exclusive, excluding anyone but them from heaven. Trust me, WE are not the frozen chosen, they are.

    The next time you see him, do not even attempt totalk to him ,just tell him that you understand that the two of you are on different levels of reasoning and scripture interpretation and that you are very sorry but you have to cut off this discourse becasue it is getting nowhere. Reasoning has to go somewhere, obviously this is not. Disassociate yourself with this other churchs' bible study and keep to your own kind. Always be ready to talk and minister to others of different faiths but do not 'throw your pearls before swine'. Its kind of like playing poker, you know when to fold em, know when to hold em. Serious lovers of God will always be ready to make a good faith attempt to study and listen in good conscience. Some just like to fight.

    Hope this helps, God is always in control. You never know when your words will take root.

    CalsFarmer
     
  14. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritan Board Doctor

    Cals,
    Look up to the right hand corner of your screen. You will see something called 'U2U'. Click on this link. You have a message.

    Scott
     
  15. Learner

    Learner Puritan Board Freshman

    Update

    Thank you Cals Farmer for your words coming from a similiar situation.
    Here is the update.I have not spoken to him regarding the Bible at all for about a week now. A mutual friend(non-
    Christian)told me that I shouldn't debate/argue with him any longer since"Alvin"has the "morals of an alley-cat".He went on to say that he can't trust Alvin because of his hypocrisy.But,he knows that I am consistent with my words and actions.Sometimes worldlings offer good advice.Yet I know that some on this board have said I should not cast pearls before swine.How true.And something Scott said on
    4/30 was pithy,but dead-on:"Why become frustrated;God isn't."Indeed.
     
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