Help identifying archaic word

Discussion in 'Puritan Literature' started by Logan, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    I'm working on some old sermons from 1562 and I'm having difficulty identifying a particular word. If anyone knows what it is I would be grateful. It reads:

    "Yea, though all should be turned upside down, though the rocks should sash one against another, and that there should be so great violence or danger that a man should think the world would perish, yet will not we fear. Here the prophet showeth us that God is not duly honored of us, and that we shall not praise his aid as it is worthy, unless we [?????] all that may happen unto us to the contrary."

    It looks like a d, e, i (or j), then possibly a y, then e. The questionable letter doesn't really resemble an x, p, or g.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    The first letter is a d I think if you look at the "and" in a line above.
     
  3. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    Here's another word, the sentence reading:

    "This then is it that he speaketh here of the works of God, for to teach us to be quiet, although that the [???????] of this world be full of confusion and trouble."

    I suspected that what looks like a d at the beginning is actually supposed to be a v (u, see above line), which would make it "voyages", but I might be mistaken.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    Correct. I meant that it looks something like "deiye", but I'm mostly uncertain about the fourth letter (or what the word would mean).
     
  5. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    That's what it looks like to me too. Does deign fit the context?
     
  6. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    I did think of that, and the problems are that it doesn't really fit the context as I understand it, and there doesn't appear to be an n in that word, not even as an overbar.
     
  7. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    It may be a v; that I think is more like the old handwriting also.
     
  8. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    Are there any other editions of the text you can check against?
     
  9. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    Possibly, though the only v I have seen in this document look like the u in "us", as seen in the example.
     
  10. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    No, this is the sole edition in English and I'm not even sure the original French exists (Calvin's sermons on Psalm 46).
     
  11. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

  12. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    Just to make sure I have it correct, is the text in the OP from Calvin's sermons on Psalm 46 or something else?

    EDIT: never mind. Chris has it covered.
     
  13. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    I'd considered that too...it doesn't quite look like an unformed f (or really a y for that matter) but perhaps they went off a better copy. I hesitate to take it as authoritative, since they obviously have to guess somewhat too, but it may be the best guess.

    Thanks for the link, by the way. I was unaware of that book. A German thesis perhaps?
     
  14. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    Supplementa Calviniana series. They tend to have mixed languages depending on the editor. I've benefited from several volumes that had English intros. Looks like just the one sermon in English? I would tend to agree with you not to fully accept it given the state of the text. Must be some broken or dropped letter portions if that is the reading; but I think they y is correct?
     
  15. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    There are two sermons on Psalm 46 and one on 48 in the original. I can't tell if this supplementa has it or not.
    I do see the word "supplementa" on the info page now. Thanks!

    Do you agree that the other word in the second sample is likely "voyages"?
     
  16. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

  17. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    In the first sample, "defye" has the merit of sounding like Calvin in translation, although it's tempting to suspect that a printer's apprentice lost his head over trying to put down "despise".

    In the second sample, I'd be reluctant to go with "voyages" unless there's another example of an initial V that looks identical to a d.
     
  18. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    I agree. If you look at the line above the word in question, the "us" uses v, and it is somewhat close to a d, except for the little tail at top. There have been similar mistakes in this printing so it is possible (not certain) the two letters were mixed up.

    I also am not sure what letter is after the y in that word but to me it looks like the u in "confusion" below it.
     
  19. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    I think it is a "v" as it is similar in my mind to the handwriting I've seen. See the chart here where it is clearly closed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_English_typeface.svg
     
  20. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    Well, I feel silly now. It seems obvious now that it is "doyuges". I think they flipped the n upside down (which happened in other places), so it's actually "doings".
     
  21. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    That does sound better.:)
     
  22. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    By the way, multiply the difficulty by 10 (100?) and you get the idea of what it is like to transcribe the 16th-17th century English secretary hand. Not only are the letters funky like this, they misspell, drop letters, etc. far worse than any printer.
     
  23. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    That's why I stick to this printed stuff :D
     

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