Doulos McKenzie
Puritan Board Freshman
Here is a link to the website: http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/
Have any of Y'all heard of the American Presbyterian Church? (APC)
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TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
A retired minister from that group, Rev. Al Wagner, has been a generous friend to me.
The group has its peculiarities--some good, some not so good. It is the only denomination on earth which has ever held to exclusive Psalmody, premillennialism, and total abstinence from alcoholic beverages as denominational distinctives. As such, there are not many who could take ministerial vows in the denomination, thus the small number of congregations mentioned by Edward.
They split from the Bible Presbyterian Church over worship issues, if I'm not mistaken.
The group has its peculiarities--some good, some not so good. It is the only denomination on earth which has ever held to exclusive Psalmody, premillennialism, and total abstinence from alcoholic beverages as denominational distinctives. As such, there are not many who could take ministerial vows in the denomination, thus the small number of congregations mentioned by Edward.
They split from the Bible Presbyterian Church over worship issues, if I'm not mistaken.
Doulos McKenzie
Puritan Board Freshman
What exactly makes them different from the BPC? Why are they so small? Is it because of cultish behavior?
My old church had some interaction with the APC after leaving the PCA in the md 1990s but I don't recall how serious any talk of merging efforts was if it even came up. EP was fine but the other two are deal breakers. I think it has always been small for those uniquely held distinctives as has been noted. There is no reason to speculate on cultish behavior.
Doulos McKenzie
Puritan Board Freshman
I just noticed there Chapter 7 in there edit of the WCF is very different here it is:
CHAPTER 7
OF GOD'S COVENANTS
SECTION I : Before the foundation of the world the persons of the Godhead made the Trinitarian Covenant to bring to pass the theocratic kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.1
SECTION II : The distance between God and the creature is so great that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he has been pleased to express by way of covenant.2
SECTION III : The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.3 In the family covenant which God also instituted with Adam, the family unit was established as the basis of society to populate the earth with a godly seed and to gain dominion over it.4
SECTION IV : Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by the covenant of works, the Lord was pleased to make another, called the Edenic, wherein he promised that Jesus Christ, the seed of the
woman, would redeem man by his blood, cover them with his righteousness, and destroy their enemy Satan.5
SECTION V : After unrestrained wickedness culminated in the judgments of the flood,6 God made a covenant with Noah establishing civil government to enforce the second table of the law and restrain wickedness,7 and promising to spare the earth from utter destruction so that human society might be preserved and the purpose of the family be realized until Christ, the Seed, should come and the elect be gathered.8
SECTION VI : To provide for the spiritual welfare of the family, God made a covenant with Abraham establishing the visible church, wherein he would be their God and they would be his people,9 and promised
that in his seed, the Christ, would all families of the earth be blessed.10 God also promised that a great nation and kings would come from him,11 and to him and his seed the land of Canaan would be given in order to fulfill his purpose of the theocratic kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.12
SECTION VII : In furtherance of God's purpose a covenant was made with Israel,13 the elect nation,14 at Sinai, placing them in a theocratic relationship15 and giving them provisional possession of the land of promise upon condition of national obedience to the law.16
SECTION VIII : In partial fulfillment of the terms of the Abrahamic covenant God established an everlasting covenant with David, the king,17 to provide out of his seed a theocratic king, the Christ, who would sit on David's throne and rule over the elect nation forever in a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.18
SECTION IX : Israel broke the covenant that God made with them at Sinai; therefore, he made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, established on better promises, whereby he would call to himself a holy nation.19 This covenant, initiated by Christ and sealed with his blood, replaced the Sinaitic and was extended to include the Gentiles, who by faith were grafted into the elect nation, thus breaking down the middle wall of partition.20
They seem to add the Covenant of Redemption in but at the same time seem to retcon the Covenant of Grace and take a Progressive Covenatlist approach to the Historic Biblical Covenants. Very intriguing.
CHAPTER 7
OF GOD'S COVENANTS
SECTION I : Before the foundation of the world the persons of the Godhead made the Trinitarian Covenant to bring to pass the theocratic kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.1
SECTION II : The distance between God and the creature is so great that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he has been pleased to express by way of covenant.2
SECTION III : The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.3 In the family covenant which God also instituted with Adam, the family unit was established as the basis of society to populate the earth with a godly seed and to gain dominion over it.4
SECTION IV : Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by the covenant of works, the Lord was pleased to make another, called the Edenic, wherein he promised that Jesus Christ, the seed of the
woman, would redeem man by his blood, cover them with his righteousness, and destroy their enemy Satan.5
SECTION V : After unrestrained wickedness culminated in the judgments of the flood,6 God made a covenant with Noah establishing civil government to enforce the second table of the law and restrain wickedness,7 and promising to spare the earth from utter destruction so that human society might be preserved and the purpose of the family be realized until Christ, the Seed, should come and the elect be gathered.8
SECTION VI : To provide for the spiritual welfare of the family, God made a covenant with Abraham establishing the visible church, wherein he would be their God and they would be his people,9 and promised
that in his seed, the Christ, would all families of the earth be blessed.10 God also promised that a great nation and kings would come from him,11 and to him and his seed the land of Canaan would be given in order to fulfill his purpose of the theocratic kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.12
SECTION VII : In furtherance of God's purpose a covenant was made with Israel,13 the elect nation,14 at Sinai, placing them in a theocratic relationship15 and giving them provisional possession of the land of promise upon condition of national obedience to the law.16
SECTION VIII : In partial fulfillment of the terms of the Abrahamic covenant God established an everlasting covenant with David, the king,17 to provide out of his seed a theocratic king, the Christ, who would sit on David's throne and rule over the elect nation forever in a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.18
SECTION IX : Israel broke the covenant that God made with them at Sinai; therefore, he made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, established on better promises, whereby he would call to himself a holy nation.19 This covenant, initiated by Christ and sealed with his blood, replaced the Sinaitic and was extended to include the Gentiles, who by faith were grafted into the elect nation, thus breaking down the middle wall of partition.20
They seem to add the Covenant of Redemption in but at the same time seem to retcon the Covenant of Grace and take a Progressive Covenatlist approach to the Historic Biblical Covenants. Very intriguing.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Yes, they do have a very distinctive form of covenant theology. Also note that their reason for abstinence from alcohol is due to a moral conviction about alcohol itself--they don't avoid it "for testimony's sake" like many do. They actually believe that alcohol use is sinful.
I wouldn't call them cultish at all. The minister of their number that I know is a very charitable Christian man, and makes no bones about attending the services of other Presbyterian bodies. I have worshiped with him in a strong PCA church and in an RPCNA church (there's no APC church where he lives). They have simply been bitten by a fundamentalist bug that drives them to a form of separatism.
I wouldn't call them cultish at all. The minister of their number that I know is a very charitable Christian man, and makes no bones about attending the services of other Presbyterian bodies. I have worshiped with him in a strong PCA church and in an RPCNA church (there's no APC church where he lives). They have simply been bitten by a fundamentalist bug that drives them to a form of separatism.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
I used to visit their site years ago to read some of the material there against New Evangelicalism, etc. To boil it down, I think they are basically Fundamentalist Presbyterians who practice Exclusive Psalmody.
Other than EP, I don't know what big issues would separate them from the BPC. But my guess is that they wouldn't like the BPC's new open stance toward the OPC. But part of the BPC didn't like it either and left the denomination within about the last 10 years in yet another split. (That makes 4 BPC splits that I can think of off the top of my head counting the APC.) I think that one took away a lot more churches from the BPC than the American Presbyterian split did.
Other than EP, I don't know what big issues would separate them from the BPC. But my guess is that they wouldn't like the BPC's new open stance toward the OPC. But part of the BPC didn't like it either and left the denomination within about the last 10 years in yet another split. (That makes 4 BPC splits that I can think of off the top of my head counting the APC.) I think that one took away a lot more churches from the BPC than the American Presbyterian split did.
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The denomination is currently down to two families in different states. It is definitely not a cult. Reverend Wagner is a very godly man he currently attends church with my family at the Dayton RPC. Please pray for Reverend Wagner as he is currently in a battle with cancer.
Doulos McKenzie
Puritan Board Freshman
Does anyone have anymore information about the APC's Covenant Theology? I want to learn more.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Louis DeBoer, their main theologian, wrote a book on the subject. It looks like you can get used copies cheap from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Covenants-Louis-F-DeBoer/dp/0970371209
My understanding, though, is that their theology is somewhat Dispensational.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
That used to be online, but the American Presbyterian Press website is offline. Maybe it is available through the internet archive (Wayback Machine.) The links to that site are still on the APC denominational website, so the URLs are still there.
EDIT: I had thought the whole thing was online, but maybe it is only one sample chapter.
That's not even a small group.
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