Graduate work suicide?

[Davidius]

Hey everybody,

This thread is the result of thinking about the things that some of the men said in earlier threads that I and Scott (Theoretical) had started regarding Christians and "Christian academia."

It seemed like the consensus was that a) seminary is primarily a training ground for ministers and b) seminary faculties should be comprised primarily of pastors or former pastors. If this is the case, I inquired whether there were any place in academia for someone interested in languages, Church History, etc. Dr. McMahon also made the point that jobs can be difficult to get. I know this to be especially true for people with degrees from Christian institutions trying to teach in secular universities.

Furthermore, the desire to be an academic is tempered by the greater desire to be a husband and a father. I don't want to go too much into detail regarding my circumstances right now, but it's very possible that I will be married before beginning graduate school. This means that I want to factor in the cost of my graduate studies. Seminary seems like it would be much more expensive than an MA at a university where teaching fellowships and more scholarships are available.

Basically what it comes down to is that I know I would love to have a MA in Theology, Church History, or in the case of WSC Historical Theology. However I'm wondering if I should consider putting that off until later in life when it seems more financially feasible and, as some men in those other threads suggested, study what I can online and with my elders and leave seminary for the ministers for now. Here are two programs that I've been looking at:

An MA in Early Christian Studies from Notre Dame, which would be a good springboard to specializing in Patristic Studies at the doctoral level somewhere.

MA + PhD in Medieval Latin at Harvard, which is part of the Classics department and would include lots of Classical literature as well as some Church History and Medieval Theology.

When I mention this to some people they immediately condemn the idea of doing any kind of "Christian Studies" at a place like Notre Dame or Harvard. I was wondering if you all think this is a real concern, particularly keeping in mind that I'm not talking about doing an M.Div, which would address theology and practice from a liberal perspective, but rather historical studies focusing on primary texts. Do those programs look like suicide for me as a Reformed Christian?

Going in this sort of direction seems to me like it would be financially responsible, especially if I'm married at the time, and also that it would make it much easier to have a job, since I would have the option of teaching at secular universities and perhaps Christian undergraduate institutions as well. Perhaps if I were ever called to ministry seminary would be more feasible, or if I just happened to be living near one with more money to afford such an expensive hobby (I say "hobby" only because I don't feel called to pastoral ministry and would only be going to study theology).

Thanks for taking the time to read all this. I'm feeling scatterbrained tonight but I hope it made sense. Any thoughts/opinions are most welcome.

 

[Ivan]

Do those programs look like suicide for me as a Reformed Christian?

How would the programs be suicide to you? Because you believe you might lose your faith? Or because you think that with a degree from a secular university you wouldn't get a job in a Reformed seminary?

 

[Davidius]

How would the programs be suicide to you? Because you believe you might lose your faith? Or because you think that with a degree from a secular university you wouldn't get a job in a Reformed seminary?

Mostly the former. That seems to be what everyone I've talked to thinks. Or at least that the education would be worthless (in the sense of personal benefit and enjoyment) because it's from that kind of school.

But I have also wondered if the latter would be true. However, as I mentioned in the first post, it sounded like most people think seminaries should be staffed by current and former pastors. Since I don't feel called to pastoral ministry I'm kinda trying not to get too excited about the possibility of teaching at seminary.

 

[Ivan]

Mostly the former. That seems to be what everyone I've talked to thinks. Or at least that the education would be worthless (in the sense of personal benefit and enjoyment) because it's from that kind of school.

But I have also wondered if the latter would be true. However, as I mentioned in the first post, it sounded like most people think seminaries should be staffed by current and former pastors. Since I don't feel called to pastoral ministry I'm kinda trying not to get too excited about the possibility of teaching at seminary.

If I were you I would find a trusted pastor and trusted seminary professor and asked them what they think of your goals. I don't know you might speak to. Is there a seminary you would be interested in attending? Have you spoken to you pastor?

 

[Davidius]

If I were you I would find a trusted pastor and trusted seminary professor and asked them what they think of your goals. I don't know you might speak to. Is there a seminary you would be interested in attending? Have you spoken to you pastor?

I've spoken a little bit about it with my pastor. I was just posting on here because I know it's good to hear lots of opinions and because I know there is at least two seminary professors (Drs. Clark and McMahon) who frequent the board.

I suppose I'm mostly wondering if I should ditch the idea studying/teaching Christian material at the university level if I'm not at seminary and just do something like Classics.

 

[Andrew P.C.]

Brother, I do want to say that we need more biblically sound people in seminaries. The lack of sound proffesors is honestly bad for the church because of the fact it results in undiscerning pastors. It also doesnt help that there are more and more movements rising that go further and further away from the truth.

But, these are good questions.

I do agree with Ivan up there when he suggests going to your pastor or a trusted seminary proffesor.

 

[Ivan]

I've spoken a little bit about it with my pastor. I was just posting on here because I know it's good to hear lots of opinions and because I know there is at least two seminary professors (Drs. Clark and McMahon) who frequent the board.

I suppose I'm mostly wondering if I should ditch the idea studying/teaching Christian material at the university level if I'm not at seminary and just do something like Classics.

Drs. Clark and McMahon can give excellent advice. I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

If you intend to teach at a secular university I would go to one of the universities you mentioned. If you can get into Harvard.....

As far as losing your faith at a secular university I think it is a personal issue. I received my undergraduate degree from a secular university and one of my Masters degrees from a secular university. Didn't harm me a bit. I had an excellent pastor during my undergraduate program. In fact, he was the one who introduced me to the doctrines of grace. By the time I got my second Masters degree I had been a pastor for 14 years.

I received a B.A. from Southern Illinois University in Edwardsville, Illinois. That degree was in history. My major professor wanted me to enter the Masters program at SIU, but I was already committed to going to seminary. I became a bi-vocational pastor in Wisconsin. I received a Masters in Library and Information Science from the University of Wisconsin. Neither experience did me any harm, but I can tell you that attending a secular university is very different from attending a seminary, as I'm sure you know.

I didn't experience any hostility at the secular universities, but the values and lifestyle are very different at the secular school. If I had to do it over I might have taken a different route, especially with my second Masters degree, but that is water under the bridge. I'm looking forward.

 

[tewilder]

Hey everybody,

This thread is the result of thinking about the things that some of the men said in earlier threads that I and Scott (Theoretical) had started regarding Christians and "Christian academia."

It seemed like the consensus was that a) seminary is primarily a training ground for ministers and b) seminary faculties should be comprised primarily of pastors or former pastors. If this is the case, I inquired whether there were any place in academia for someone interested in languages, Church History, etc. Dr. McMahon also made the point that jobs can be difficult to get. I know this to be especially true for people with degrees from Christian institutions trying to teach in secular universities.

Furthermore, the desire to be an academic is tempered by the greater desire to be a husband and a father. I don't want to go too much into detail regarding my circumstances right now, but it's very possible that I will be married before beginning graduate school. This means that I want to factor in the cost of my graduate studies. Seminary seems like it would be much more expensive than an MA at a university where teaching fellowships and more scholarships are available.

Basically what it comes down to is that I know I would love to have a MA in Theology, Church History, or in the case of WSC Historical Theology. However I'm wondering if I should consider putting that off until later in life when it seems more financially feasible and, as some men in those other threads suggested, study what I can online and with my elders and leave seminary for the ministers for now. Here are two programs that I've been looking at:

An MA in Early Christian Studies from Notre Dame, which would be a good springboard to specializing in Patristic Studies at the doctoral level somewhere.

MA + PhD in Medieval Latin at Harvard, which is part of the Classics department and would include lots of Classical literature as well as some Church History and Medieval Theology.

When I mention this to some people they immediately condemn the idea of doing any kind of "Christian Studies" at a place like Notre Dame or Harvard. I was wondering if you all think this is a real concern, particularly keeping in mind that I'm not talking about doing an M.Div, which would address theology and practice from a liberal perspective, but rather historical studies focusing on primary texts. Do those programs look like suicide for me as a Reformed Christian?

Going in this sort of direction seems to me like it would be financially responsible, especially if I'm married at the time, and also that it would make it much easier to have a job, since I would have the option of teaching at secular universities and perhaps Christian undergraduate institutions as well. Perhaps if I were ever called to ministry seminary would be more feasible, or if I just happened to be living near one with more money to afford such an expensive hobby (I say "hobby" only because I don't feel called to pastoral ministry and would only be going to study theology).

Thanks for taking the time to read all this. I'm feeling scatterbrained tonight but I hope it made sense. Any thoughts/opinions are most welcome.

Seminary is a very bad place to learn anything. Seminaries take students with a vocational aim, and not necessarily with scholarly skills and interests, and then run a cram school for them. You have to study all manner of unrelated things at once, and cannot concentrate on and properly learn any one of them.

 

[JJF]

Hello David,

I originally came to Westminster Cal to pursue a MDiv, but after further reflection I decided that my goals are more academic than pastoral.

Although I'm not pursuing the pastorate, I'm happy that I came to Westminster. Not only will you study the original languages, but you'll study the linguistic and hermeneutical principles that undergird sound exegisis, which can only strengthen your academic resume-not hurt it. Theology (read: systematics, biblical studies, practical theology, and church history) is not pure science, but it's an art. Many would-be scholars are going to need this art in order to be masterful craftsman. Futhermore, because theology is an art, there are many ways of doing theology. Yes, there are many approaches to even how one does church history (see: Richard Muller's work "Church History"). In fact, there are a lot of problems with shotty historiographers today, and, in a Postmodern era, they don't seem to be going away soon. I can't really speak about the specific schools' historiography that you mention, but they may, on the whole, pursue it from a different set of philosophical principles (Notre Dame professor, Randall Zachman, is one exception). I do, however, know that Westminster is very skilled at practising and teaching others to practice this art. I doubt that you would sell your soul to the devil if you went to a secular university, but I do think there are different philosophies of history out there.

Also, being a good church historian requires that you know theology. Dr. Godfrey complains of church historians who open their mouth and insert their foot, when they try to do historical theology because they don't even understand its basic categories. A good historical theologian needs to be a good theologian.

If you put off studying academic theology until later, then it will be a step back and not one forward. Good theology comes before good church history. There are secular universities that employ excellent church historians. Of course keeping providence in the Hintergrund, you'll have to be the creme of the crop to get those jobs.

Is there a place for your type at Westminster? Yes. The Historical theology degree is specifically designed for people such as yourself. Do you need Westminster to get into a Master's or PhD program? No.

But you will get what many church historians lack: good theology and a sound methodology for church history. Yes, it's expensive. Is it worth it? I think that you can guess what my answer would be.

 

[Davidius]

Hello David,

I originally came to Westminster Cal to pursue a MDiv, but after further reflection I decided that my goals are more academic than pastoral.

Although I'm not pursuing the pastorate, I'm happy that I came to Westminster. Not only will you study the original languages, but you'll study the linguistic and hermeneutical principles that undergird sound exegisis, which can only strengthen your academic resume-not hurt it. Theology (read: systematics, biblical studies, practical theology, and church history) is not pure science, but it's an art. Many would-be scholars are going to need this art in order to be masterful craftsman. Futhermore, because theology is an art, there are many ways of doing theology. Yes, there are many approaches to even how one does church history (see: Richard Muller's work "Church History"). In fact, there are a lot of problems with shotty historiographers today, and, in a Postmodern era, they don't seem to be going away soon. I can't really speak about the specific schools' historiography that you mention, but they may, on the whole, pursue it from a different set of philosophical principles (Notre Dame professor, Randall Zachman, is one exception). I do, however, know that Westminster is very skilled at practising and teaching others to practice this art. I doubt that you would sell your soul to the devil if you went to a secular university, but I do think there are different philosophies of history out there.

Also, being a good church historian requires that you know theology. Dr. Godfrey complains of church historians who open their mouth and insert their foot, when they try to do historical theology because they don't even understand its basic categories. A good historical theologian needs to be a good theologian.

If you put off studying academic theology until later, then it will be a step back and not one forward. Good theology comes before good church history. There are secular universities that employ excellent church historians. Of course keeping providence in the Hintergrund, you'll have to be the creme of the crop to get those jobs.

Is there a place for your type at Westminster? Yes. The Historical theology degree is specifically designed for people such as yourself. Do you need Westminster to get into a Master's or PhD program? No.

But you will get what many church historians lack: good theology and a sound methodology for church history. Yes, it's expensive. Is it worth it? I think that you can guess what my answer would be.

Joshua,

It seems as though we have a lot in common! We are both interested in academics, and both studied German and Classics during our undergraduate studies.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response. It sounds like you understand my position very well and I'm glad to have read your input. The MAHT at Westminster California is the program that has been most attractive to me out of any degree at any seminary.

Do you have AOL Instant Messenger by any chance? I would love to be able to discuss this more with you in real-time. If you don't, I could just e-mail you or PM you.

 

[Ivan]

The MAHT at Westminster California is program that has been most attractive to me out of any degree at any seminary.

Sounds like a good option to me. Follow it up with a PhD. at Oxford?

 

[Davidius]

Sounds like a good option to me. Follow it up with a PhD. at Oxford?

This has sounded pretty enticing to me before. But I've always wondered if one must, without exception, be a pastor or former pastor in order to teach at a seminary. If I go the Church History route and get degrees from conservative Christian schools, my chances of getting a job in secular academia go down. However, if the answer to my question is "no," then things change a little.

I suppose I could always look for Christian undergraduate institutions if being a seminary professor is out of the question.

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Hi David,

I don't see why attending graduate school at a secular or private Roman university has to be "suicide," -- if I'm understanding your question.

We have no reason to be afraid of the academy. University profs put on their trousers one leg at a time.

Most of it, at that level, is very specialized and technical. There will be challenges to be sure, but if one wants to be a scholar one must be willing to face those challenges squarely. That was how folk such as Machen and Vos handled it. They faced the hostile academy squarely and they became better scholars because of it.

That's not to say that you shouldn't attend WSC! We would be pleased to have you.

 

[jaybird0827]

...

I suppose I could always look for Christian undergraduate institutions if being a seminary professor is out of the question.

David, are you familiar with Grove City College? True, it is mainline Presbyterian, but from everything I know it, I think that would be the type of institution where you would find a high potential to contribute positively and where you would find a lot of encouraging support.

 

[JJF]

David,

I'm glad that you found my post to be helpful. I don't have an instant messenger, but I could look in to getting one. Email or phone would probably be better, though. Here is my email: [email protected]. I probably won't be able to talk until the weekend sometime, because I have quizzes and assignments to prepare and get done in the immediate future.

To add to what Dr. Clark said, there are indeed challenges out there in the academy. I believe that Westminster could teach you how to deal with those challenges fairly, honestly, carefully, and thoughtfully. That is not to say that there aren't other places that can accomplish this. Though, here the faculty to student ratio is low enough that you can work closely with mutiple professors if you choose. There is a list of where students at Westminster have went to get their PhD (when we talk, I can share that with you). You might find it of value to contact some former students, who are currently studying at secular universities, and see what they think.

 

[JJF]

I should have mentioned this in my last post. Shoot me an email with your phone number and a good time to call you, and I'll do so this weekend. I look forward to talking to you.

 

[Davidius]

I should have mentioned this in my last post. Shoot me an email with your phone number and a good time to call you, and I'll do so this weekend. I look forward to talking to you.

When I clicked on the link to e-mail you, it said that you had chosen not to make your e-mail available on the board. Can you PM me your e-mail address?

 

[Ivan]

When I clicked on the link to e-mail you, it said that you had chosen not to make your e-mail available on the board. Can you PM me your e-mail address?

David, the link in post #15 works.

 

[Davidius]

David, the link in post #15 works.

Haha oops. I totally forgot that that was there.

 

[Ivan]

Haha oops. I totally forgot that that was there.

No problem.