Going out to eat on Sunday
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WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
At my church we always eat either at the church building after service or at people's houses.
Is this something that the church would (should) enforce if members do not adhere to?
I personally do not eat out on the sabbath, but I know many who do. I am often looked upon as "legalistic" because I tell them they are in sin if they do eat out (in all normal circumstances). How does one enforce such a law in today's church?
I personally do not eat out on the sabbath, but I know many who do. I am often looked upon as "legalistic" because I tell them they are in sin if they do eat out (in all normal circumstances). How does one enforce such a law in today's church?
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. XXI:
Westminster Larger Catechism:
Neh. 13.15-22:
[Edited on 5-26-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
Westminster Larger Catechism:
Neh. 13.15-22:
[Edited on 5-26-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
Oh yeah?!!? Well Israel was a theocracy.
Sorry...had to do that. This has actually been an aspect of spiritual growth for me wrestling through this issue. Can't say that I fully understand it with all of its ins and outs yet, but until I do, I'm trying to err on the side of not doing anything (and keeping it imperectly still...Praise God for Christ's imputed righteousness!).
Sorry...had to do that. This has actually been an aspect of spiritual growth for me wrestling through this issue. Can't say that I fully understand it with all of its ins and outs yet, but until I do, I'm trying to err on the side of not doing anything (and keeping it imperectly still...Praise God for Christ's imputed righteousness!).
M
Matthew French
Guest
If it is not lawful for us to work on Sunday, then I just can't understand why it would be lawful to solicit the personal service of someone else.
A contractor was putting in a patio at my house last week and was supposed to finish on Saturday. He couldn't quite get it done and assured me that it would be done Sunday afternoon. He was shocked when I told him that I would not let him work at my house on Sunday. Not a single customer has ever told him that. Sad.
A contractor was putting in a patio at my house last week and was supposed to finish on Saturday. He couldn't quite get it done and assured me that it would be done Sunday afternoon. He was shocked when I told him that I would not let him work at my house on Sunday. Not a single customer has ever told him that. Sad.
Solo Christo
Puritan Board Freshman
Hello Matthew and welcome! Glad to see you are in such a good mood!
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Our church eats together on the Lord's day as well and most if not all of those that don't eat with the church, stay home and cook inviting others over to eat. Many will stay at the church the whole day from 9:30 to 7:30. that may sound extreme but not when service is over at 12:30 then finish eating by 2:30 only to have service again at 6:00. My 30 minute ride home and back keeps me at church often.
I confess I am trying to break the habit of grabbing a burger on the way home for dinner because I interpret the Scripture that my "hired manservants" a.k.a. Mickey D employees - are to be given rest, too.
I confess I am trying to break the habit of grabbing a burger on the way home for dinner because I interpret the Scripture that my "hired manservants" a.k.a. Mickey D employees - are to be given rest, too.
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Hi Matthew! Welcome to Puritanland!
Welcome Matthew! I don't know, but we may have met one of the times I was at Christ the Word. David is a good friend.
Laura
Puritan Board Junior
I'm going to offer a differing opinion, but let it be known that I am in full agreement with the Westminster standards and take the Lord's Day very seriously. I was wrestling this question a few weeks ago, and a friend suggested something: Since the restaurants are going to be open anyway (bear with me, I know that sounds fishy) - really, they would, even if entire churches banned their members from going to them - we might look at this a different way and see it as a manner of "plundering the Egyptians," so to speak, as we are sojourners in Babylon. Unbelieving chefs and waitresses are, of course, not going to regard the Sabbath law, and if they are believers, it is their responsibility to repent. (Though I grant that if the topic came up with your waiter/waitress and you found out that s/he were a Christian, then it would be your responsibility to let them know that they're breaking God's law.) Basically, this is what I think: opening a restaurant on the Sabbath is certainly a sin, since it qualifies as an unnecessary business, but how does it follow that we are sinning if we go out and take advantage of a restaurant's service to celebrate the day with our family and friends?
A possible objection might be that the fourth commandment includes an explicit command to keep one's servants (and even animals) from working. But as such, those servants fall under the head of the house's responsibility - workers at restaurants do not.
Anyway, I would see this as being one of the issues concerning the Sabbath that comes down to personal conviction. If you cannot have somebody work for you on the Sabbath with a clear conscience, then by all means, don't.
(By the way, is this the best forum for this?)
[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Laura]
A possible objection might be that the fourth commandment includes an explicit command to keep one's servants (and even animals) from working. But as such, those servants fall under the head of the house's responsibility - workers at restaurants do not.
Anyway, I would see this as being one of the issues concerning the Sabbath that comes down to personal conviction. If you cannot have somebody work for you on the Sabbath with a clear conscience, then by all means, don't.
(By the way, is this the best forum for this?)
[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Laura]
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
I am one who affirms that the Lord's Day should be a day of rest from our regular works to focus on the worship of God. I would contend that much of the "œstuff" that we do on Sunday dishonors God and robs us of the benefits and blessings that a right observance of the Lord´s Day is intended to bring. So do not think that I am some antinomian who has no regard for the Lord´s Day.
At the same time, however, I cannot accept the strict Sabbatarian position for several reasons (I am sure that none of these reasons will satisfy those who are strict Sabbatarians any more than their arguments would satisfy those who are not!) though for the sake of time I will only list 2"¦
First, the 4th Commandment (which is moral "“ though Turretin says that it is both moral and ceremonial), simply tells us to keep the Sabbath holy. It is left to the ceremonial/civil laws to unpack what that meant for the people of the Old Covenant. WCF 19.3 and 19.4 indicate that these are not binding on us. The NT does not introduce commands telling us what we must do/not do to take the place of those Old Covenant civil and ceremonial laws. Thus we are left with the general moral principle of "œkeeping the Lord´s Day holy." Several things may be inferred from the idea of keeping it "œholy," but given the Confession´s own admission of the fact that the civil and ceremonial laws are now abrogated and the lack of new/replacement laws in the NT seem to indicate that NT believers have a much greater degree of personal freedom (and responsibility!) to exercise in keeping the Lord´s Day holy.
Second, I always chuckle when I hear people go into the minutae to prescribe what actions are/aren´t allowed on Sunday. Beyond an appeal to "œcommon sense" it is hard to determine what is a true work of mercy or a true work of necessity - both of which are allowed by even the most strict Sabbatarian (but only) because WCF 23.8 says so. I, but thankfully not only I, see how it can be construed as an excellent work/demonstration of mercy (even if the one performing it does not perceive it as such) for someone such as a restaurant cook or a waitress to perform their work on the Lord´s Day. Why? This allows my wife (and countless other godly Christians) to truly rest from that which she does every other day of the week: cook/prepare the food and then clean up the mess after we eat.
[Edited on 5-26-2005 by SolaScriptura]
At the same time, however, I cannot accept the strict Sabbatarian position for several reasons (I am sure that none of these reasons will satisfy those who are strict Sabbatarians any more than their arguments would satisfy those who are not!) though for the sake of time I will only list 2"¦
First, the 4th Commandment (which is moral "“ though Turretin says that it is both moral and ceremonial), simply tells us to keep the Sabbath holy. It is left to the ceremonial/civil laws to unpack what that meant for the people of the Old Covenant. WCF 19.3 and 19.4 indicate that these are not binding on us. The NT does not introduce commands telling us what we must do/not do to take the place of those Old Covenant civil and ceremonial laws. Thus we are left with the general moral principle of "œkeeping the Lord´s Day holy." Several things may be inferred from the idea of keeping it "œholy," but given the Confession´s own admission of the fact that the civil and ceremonial laws are now abrogated and the lack of new/replacement laws in the NT seem to indicate that NT believers have a much greater degree of personal freedom (and responsibility!) to exercise in keeping the Lord´s Day holy.
Second, I always chuckle when I hear people go into the minutae to prescribe what actions are/aren´t allowed on Sunday. Beyond an appeal to "œcommon sense" it is hard to determine what is a true work of mercy or a true work of necessity - both of which are allowed by even the most strict Sabbatarian (but only) because WCF 23.8 says so. I, but thankfully not only I, see how it can be construed as an excellent work/demonstration of mercy (even if the one performing it does not perceive it as such) for someone such as a restaurant cook or a waitress to perform their work on the Lord´s Day. Why? This allows my wife (and countless other godly Christians) to truly rest from that which she does every other day of the week: cook/prepare the food and then clean up the mess after we eat.
[Edited on 5-26-2005 by SolaScriptura]
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Just to be difficult, if we cannot go out to eat because it violates the Lord's Day, can we solicit the services of the electric company or the telephone company on those days (any of the utilities)? or can we get gas if we are ready to run out on our way to church, or ought we to simply leave earlier to walk? Are we REALLY talking about inconvenience or Sabbath keeping? Thus, is it OK to work for a restaurant to get a meal if you are homeless on the Sabbath? (i.e. can we pick heads of grain becuase we are hungry?)
[Edited on 5-27-2005 by webmaster]
[Edited on 5-27-2005 by webmaster]
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Robin
Ben and Matt --- great points, my brothers!
Thanking God, for our liberty in Christ!
Robin
to Ben, Matt, and Robin!I especially like Ben's comment about his wife not having to cook, clean up, etc. on Sunday. --- This is precisely the same reason that my family and I get food to-go every Sunday after church. . . . After struggling with with this question for a while, I came to the same conclusion as Ben, that we could keep the Sabbath *better* by getting food from Wendys or Burger King, rather than having my wife go to the trouble of cooking lunch on Sundays.
After all, not only should I rest on Sundays . . . my wife should too!
Jie-Huli
Puritan Board Freshman
It is quite feasible for a family to make a simple and healthy meal without spending an excess of time and energy on it. I do not believe it is right for Christians to partake of restaurant food on the Lord's Day in order to have more of a Sabbath themselves, thus taking part in, and benefiting from, others breaking the Sabbath by engaging in a regular day's employment on it.
For one family to make a meal for itself takes just a bit of time. The family members will make the food and eat in a reasonable amount of time, and then continue in the worship of the Lord. But when large numbers of families and people go to a restaurant to eat, though the time any one family spends on the meal may be quite short, when you add up all the families who go and partake of this, the chefs and waiters at the restaurant are being put to a full day of work, and thus are kept from setting the day apart as God's law requires.
As for "plundering Egyptians", I know of no example in Scripture where it is allowed for us to participate in and benefit from other people's sins just because they would sin just the same with or without us.
Let us take no part in such things.
Blessings,
Jie-huli
For one family to make a meal for itself takes just a bit of time. The family members will make the food and eat in a reasonable amount of time, and then continue in the worship of the Lord. But when large numbers of families and people go to a restaurant to eat, though the time any one family spends on the meal may be quite short, when you add up all the families who go and partake of this, the chefs and waiters at the restaurant are being put to a full day of work, and thus are kept from setting the day apart as God's law requires.
As for "plundering Egyptians", I know of no example in Scripture where it is allowed for us to participate in and benefit from other people's sins just because they would sin just the same with or without us.
Let us take no part in such things.
Blessings,
Jie-huli
BobVigneault
Bawberator
It seems that everytime we discuss the sabbath we spent an unbalanced time discuss what is not allowed on the sabbath. This culminates in two unfortunate results.
1. We end up looking like the School of Shimmai or some equally pharisaical group. They wouldn't allow a rabbi to throw warm water over himself for fear the vapor might clean the doorpost. Admittedly I'm using reductio absurdum here but we are heading there anyway.
2. We use way too much mental energy to describe in infinite detail what is not allowed and neglect the higher spiritual thoughts, meditations and activities that ought to be our focus on the sabbath.
I just don't see Jesus giving any teaching on all the things that we shouldn't do lest we violate the sabbath. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
My two cents. (Actually not even a brass farthing.)
1. We end up looking like the School of Shimmai or some equally pharisaical group. They wouldn't allow a rabbi to throw warm water over himself for fear the vapor might clean the doorpost. Admittedly I'm using reductio absurdum here but we are heading there anyway.
2. We use way too much mental energy to describe in infinite detail what is not allowed and neglect the higher spiritual thoughts, meditations and activities that ought to be our focus on the sabbath.
I just don't see Jesus giving any teaching on all the things that we shouldn't do lest we violate the sabbath. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
My two cents. (Actually not even a brass farthing.)
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
This is a post I wrote earlier this year on a separate thread which I think is relevant to this thread:
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Well put, well said, rich words.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
Without getting into all of the ins and outs of this discussion so far as to the levels one will actually do something on the sabbath...
A very practical suggestion for people who are trying to keep it:
Slow cookers/crock pots...Put a roast in the night before. Cook chili in it. soups...We have a great cook book with a ton of slow cooker recipes. Come home from church and a hot meal is already waiting. It also makes it easy to have people over after church.
Also...use paper plates and styrofoam cups too for less clean-up hassles.
[Edited on 5-27-2005 by crhoades]
A very practical suggestion for people who are trying to keep it:
Slow cookers/crock pots...Put a roast in the night before. Cook chili in it. soups...We have a great cook book with a ton of slow cooker recipes. Come home from church and a hot meal is already waiting. It also makes it easy to have people over after church.
Also...use paper plates and styrofoam cups too for less clean-up hassles.
[Edited on 5-27-2005 by crhoades]
M
Matthew French
Guest
These conversations always degenerate into, "Well, what about doing this on Sunday?" The electric and gas companies are always dragged into them as well. Rather than wrangle over how far of an extreme we should take things to, why don't we rather do what's easy: Don't work and don't personally ask other people to work for you.
If it is wrong for you to work on Sunday then how on earth can you sit in a restaurant and ask a nice young lady who wasn't at church at 11:30 a.m. to bring you another cup of coffee at 12:30 p.m.?
My antenna goes up whenever I hear people dismiss anything because it's difficult to deal with the extreme circumstances. The homeless, for instance, is an extreme example. Using electricity is an extreme example. Soliciting the personal services of someone who should not be working on the Lord's day is putting a stumbling block right in front of him. Without forgiveness from God, he WILL be be held guilty for the work that you requested he do. That's an easy one, to my mind.
By the way, regarding the "restaurants are going to be open anyway" argument... Restaurants are packed to the gills with people coming from church. If all the Christians took this commandment seriously you would see restaurants closing left and right on Sundays.
Regarding the "my wife needs rest, too" argument. Good point, maybe you could help her.
If it is wrong for you to work on Sunday then how on earth can you sit in a restaurant and ask a nice young lady who wasn't at church at 11:30 a.m. to bring you another cup of coffee at 12:30 p.m.?
My antenna goes up whenever I hear people dismiss anything because it's difficult to deal with the extreme circumstances. The homeless, for instance, is an extreme example. Using electricity is an extreme example. Soliciting the personal services of someone who should not be working on the Lord's day is putting a stumbling block right in front of him. Without forgiveness from God, he WILL be be held guilty for the work that you requested he do. That's an easy one, to my mind.
By the way, regarding the "restaurants are going to be open anyway" argument... Restaurants are packed to the gills with people coming from church. If all the Christians took this commandment seriously you would see restaurants closing left and right on Sundays.
Regarding the "my wife needs rest, too" argument. Good point, maybe you could help her.
"Malls are going to be open anyway"
"They are going to play that professional baseball game anyway"
and so on, and so on...
The primary reason I do not eat out on the Sabbath is not that it causes others to work (although that is definately an important reason), but it is that I am engaging in business. I am buying something. I am exchanging money for services rendered. In light of Neh. 13.15-22, this is sinful. We are to rest from these actions during the sabbath, and are to engage ourselves the whole day in private and public worship.
Can we come up with exceptions (i.e. running out of gas on the way to church) with the rule? Probably. The point is that we can prepare all of these things before hand. I try to fill up Saturday if I am low on gas, and try to make sure I have something quick to prepare for meals on Sunday. This allows me to refrain from business deals with the world, and more time to prepare for bible study in the evening.
Can we come up with exceptions (i.e. running out of gas on the way to church) with the rule? Probably. The point is that we can prepare all of these things before hand. I try to fill up Saturday if I am low on gas, and try to make sure I have something quick to prepare for meals on Sunday. This allows me to refrain from business deals with the world, and more time to prepare for bible study in the evening.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Ah, the never ending struggle between Law and license... (**winces in anticipation**)
Mark 2
27And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Galatians 5
19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
-JD
Mark 2
27And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Galatians 5
19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
-JD
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