God's Hatred

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SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
Now excuse me as this is my first "real" thread and I did not take the time to search for anything regarding this, but I would care to ask the question:

Does God hate unrepentant sinners?

My answer resides as yes.
This is why:

What does God hate?
Wickedness
Sin
Those who perform iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
(I am assuming) The suppression of truth and His righteousness (Romans 1)

Now, what do unrepentant sinners do?:
Wickedness
Sin
All things against God
Iniquity
Suppress the truth and His righteousness.

Furthermore:
What more is there for God to live in the individual? What good is there to an unrepentant sinner? Absolutely nothing, nothing but wickedness and everything God hates. What can God possibly personally love towards a person who is nothing short of everything He hates?

For purpose of my arguments, as I see that I am perhaps the youngest poster on this forum, you all seem to be in seminary and college and far wiser and intelligent than me. I suppose I don't have to bring up the Greek text of John 3:16 which is only a demonstration of God's love towards ill deserving sinners such as you and me, and the same goes for Romans 5:8.

I have never seen a verse in the Bible suggesting God has a personal love for unrepentant sinners.

And this "hatred" I am attempting to debate is not one of our comprehension for any such hatred would be pure, perfect, righteous, and just in every way beyond ways our fallible, sinful selves and comprehend.

Thoughts?
 

awretchsavedbygrace

Puritan Board Sophomore
Now excuse me as this is my first "real" thread and I did not take the time to search for anything regarding this, but I would care to ask the question:

Does God hate unrepentant sinners?

My answer resides as yes.
This is why:

What does God hate?
Wickedness
Sin
Those who perform iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
(I am assuming) The suppression of truth and His righteousness (Romans 1)

Now, what do unrepentant sinners do?:
Wickedness
Sin
All things against God
Iniquity
Suppress the truth and His righteousness.

Furthermore:
What more is there for God to live in the individual? What good is there to an unrepentant sinner? Absolutely nothing, nothing but wickedness and everything God hates. What can God possibly personally love towards a person who is nothing short of everything He hates?

For purpose of my arguments, as I see that I am perhaps the youngest poster on this forum, you all seem to be in seminary and college and far wiser and intelligent than me. I suppose I don't have to bring up the Greek text of John 3:16 which is only a demonstration of God's love towards ill deserving sinners such as you and me, and the same goes for Romans 5:8.

I have never seen a verse in the Bible suggesting God has a personal love for unrepentant sinners.

And this "hatred" I am attempting to debate is not one of our comprehension for any such hatred would be pure, perfect, righteous, and just in every way beyond ways our fallible, sinful selves and comprehend.

Thoughts?

Common Grace anyone?
 

awretchsavedbygrace

Puritan Board Sophomore
Common Grace anyone?
If, by Common Grace, you mean that God brings rain on the just and the unjust alike, that He grants temporal gifts to the reprobate as well as the elect, so on and so forth, I can agree with you (though I wouldn't call it grace). However, all of those "gifts" simply serve to fit the reprobate for destruction and make them all the riper for judgment. So I believe Common Grace is an insufficient term to describe the temporal "good things of the earth" God gives to all creatures made in His image.

If you're interested, there's a very good article that touches upon this briefly by our very own Rev. Winzer (armourbearer):

http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/there-free-offer-just-command-repent-believe-46402/#post588587

Touche....
 

Berean

Puritanboard Commissioner
God does hate the reprobate, and He is angry with the wicked everyday. What we must be careful about, however, is that we are commanded to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us, et al. God's hatred is a perfect, holy, and just hatred. Ours, on the other hand, is not because it is tainted by our own pride, self-righteousness, and sinfulness.

Thanks, Josh :amen:
 

awretchsavedbygrace

Puritan Board Sophomore
Common Grace anyone?
If, by Common Grace, you mean that God brings rain on the just and the unjust alike, that He grants temporal gifts to the reprobate as well as the elect, so on and so forth, I can agree with you (though I wouldn't call it grace). However, all of those "gifts" simply serve to fit the reprobate for destruction and make them all the riper for judgment. So I believe Common Grace is an insufficient term to describe the temporal "good things of the earth" God gives to all creatures made in His image.

If you're interested, there's a very good article that touches upon this briefly by our very own Rev. Winzer (armourbearer):

http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/there-free-offer-just-command-repent-believe-46402/#post588587

Do these "gifts" not come from the grace of God?
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
Would one of you mind defining what you mean by "common grace?"
Common grace in my mind has always been the grace that allows us to live, breathe, laugh, and keep us from hell.
Essentially, common grace is attributed towards all men and is everything short of hell for us.

Is this the definition we are going by or is there a deeper understanding and meaning for this?
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
I can't adequately define the term common grace because I don't believe grace's application is referred to as common in scripture.

I suppose perhaps not by name, but to evaluate:

What lets us breathe? God's grace
What lets us live? God's grace
Why do we have food? God's grace.

Essentially all things we have are found as being as a gift of God which can be considered an act of grace, displayed towards all people.

Whereas we have saving grace which would include God's electing grace, financial, persevering, justifying, glorifying and so forth.

Do you understand the point I am attempting to make?
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
What lets us breathe?
What lets us live?
Why do we have food?
Who's us? The Elect or the Reprobate? It's a different answer for each group.

For the elect, these things are God's temporal gifts and comforts, or his longsuffering toward them before He brings them to salvation. For the reprobate, these things serve as a hardening and ripening exercise fitting them unto destruction (Rom. 9).

Well I suppose the "us" would include everyone.
I consider all these things regardless as to whom they are for, an act of grace towards all people whether for hardening and ripening or for temporal gifts and comforts as you put it.

My opinion is that regardless of whom they are for, they are a gracious gift which we still receive even though we are sinners. I consider that even despite our sin and suppression of God's truth He still provides for such things which is in my mind an act of grace. Which will ultimately for the reprobate only prolong their life until judgment, or for the elect as a gift of grace and love and mercy from God which we don't deserve that we might enjoy God for being so gracious in providing them.
 

historyb

Puritan Board Junior
Well the controversial one will answer, because well I'm feeling controversial. :) I don't think God hates the reprobate
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
I can't adequately define the term common grace because I don't believe grace's application is referred to as common in scripture.

I much prefer the simple term "Providence" as God acts in time and space to effect His decrees - and for some that means they get rain (both just and unjust) and for others, drought (both just and unjust). For the just, timely rain very well may spring forth from God's gracious love to them - for the unjust, timely rain is, well, as Josh put it, hardly to be termed "grace" if what it does is harden them in their self-sufficiency and arrogant pride. Always, though, it is God's Providential working of His Will.
 

Reformed Rush

Puritan Board Freshman
Would one of you mind defining what you mean by "common grace?"

Well, Jake, I for one do not believe there is such a thing as "common grace." I believe God's grace is particular in nature, always salvific, and only applied to His elect sons of God and never to the reprobates of the world.

What many call "grace," such as earthly blessings and divine patience with wickedness, is not "grace" but Godly providence.

God is a good God and providentially bestows earthly blessing amongst many in order to pursue and fulfill His own purposes and intents.

But GRACE is the receiving of covenant blessings, promised to the spiritual seed amongst mankind, alone. Only those chosen and elect in Jesus Christ ever truly know the saving grace of God.

Jim
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
What lets us breathe?
What lets us live?
Why do we have food?
Who's us? The Elect or the Reprobate? It's a different answer for each group.

For the elect, these things are God's temporal gifts and comforts, or his longsuffering toward them before He brings them to salvation. For the reprobate, these things serve as a hardening and ripening exercise fitting them unto destruction (Rom. 9).

Well I suppose the "us" would include everyone.
I consider all these things regardless as to whom they are for, an act of grace towards all people whether for hardening and ripening or for temporal gifts and comforts as you put it.

I've said this in another post... but I'll say it again, since you brought it up here.

How can an act which hardens a reprobate, and sends him deeper into his sin ever possibly be interpreted as an act of grace toward him?
 

Reformed Rush

Puritan Board Freshman
Does God hate unrepentant sinners?

The more important question would be, do unrepentant sinners hate God?

The answer: Yes.

Is God obligated in any way to love those who hate Him?

The answer: No.

When we were dead in our sins and trespasses, did we saved Christians hate God?

The answer: Yes.

So God chose to love us despite our hatred of Him. Which is pure grace.

Those God chooses to leave reprobate in hatred of Him, is pure justice.

At least, that is how I see these matters taught in the bible.

Jim
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Doug, posting simply to stir the pot is not welcome.
I didn't I posted my opinion which goes against the grain here

Posting a hit-and-run opinion without the Scriptural grounding for it (you should have it, if you hold it to be what the Bible teaches) is what we generally refer to as "stirring the pot". You know it "goes against the grain", yet you posted your little quip anyway. That's why it's not appreciated. Posting of such pot-shot opinions isn't something you should be so willing to do.
 

ChariotsofFire

Puritan Board Sophomore
When you first compare passages like Ezekiel 18:23 with Hosea 9:15 or Romans 9:13, it's seems hard to reconcile such passages. Our finite minds can not fully comprehend how the will of God works. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture and submit to the teaching of Scripture. We can not rely on our reason to understand how God Almighty works, but only his Word.

My view is that God hates wickedness, and yes he hates the wicked. At the same time, God does not delight in condemning the wicked to hell. He is a kind, compassionate merciful God, but he is also a God of justice.


A helpful article:
Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
Who's us? The Elect or the Reprobate? It's a different answer for each group.

For the elect, these things are God's temporal gifts and comforts, or his longsuffering toward them before He brings them to salvation. For the reprobate, these things serve as a hardening and ripening exercise fitting them unto destruction (Rom. 9).

Well I suppose the "us" would include everyone.
I consider all these things regardless as to whom they are for, an act of grace towards all people whether for hardening and ripening or for temporal gifts and comforts as you put it.

I've said this in another post... but I'll say it again, since you brought it up here.

How can an act which hardens a reprobate, and sends him deeper into his sin ever possibly be interpreted as an act of grace toward him?
All things that are not sinful can be used to glorify God. Soli Deo Gloria in action.

Can food be used to glorify God? I believe so. Can it be used for sin and wrong things? Absolutely.
What more is the thing which permits us to live and move other than grace?
I suppose I interpret grace differently than you. God provides, yes; God is provident, yes; but God's providence is an act of grace, which we still don't deserve. It is sin when God's blessings towards us are used for things other than the glorification of Him, which is actually idolatry. Good things become god things which makes it a bad thing.

I hope the answers your question.
 

ChariotsofFire

Puritan Board Sophomore
I've thought about this subject before when I've heard friends of mine say, "God hates the sin, but not the sinner." It's sounds like a nice cliche, but I don't know if it's Biblical. Any thoughts?
 

kalawine

Puritan Board Junior
Common Grace anyone?
If, by Common Grace, you mean that God brings rain on the just and the unjust alike, that He grants temporal gifts to the reprobate as well as the elect, so on and so forth, I can agree with you (though I wouldn't call it grace). However, all of those "gifts" simply serve to fit the reprobate for destruction and make them all the riper for judgment. So I believe Common Grace is an insufficient term to describe the temporal "good things of the earth" God gives to all creatures made in His image.

:agree:
 

Reformed Rush

Puritan Board Freshman
When you first compare passages like Ezekiel 18:23 with Hosea 9:15 or Romans 9:13, it's seems hard to reconcile such passages. Our finite minds can not fully comprehend how the will of God works. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture and submit to the teaching of Scripture. We can not rely on our reason to understand how God Almighty works, but only his Word.

My view is that God hates wickedness, and yes he hates the wicked. At the same time, God does not delight in condemning the wicked to hell. He is a kind, compassionate merciful God, but he is also a God of justice.


A helpful article:
Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

This "Two Wills of God" is a fallacious teaching, meant to suggest God desires that not all men perish, and is unhappy that many are consigned to hell, which contradicts the doctrine of divine reprobation, altogether.

It is an apologetic for teaching a "common grace" that is not biblical at all.
 

ChariotsofFire

Puritan Board Sophomore
When you first compare passages like Ezekiel 18:23 with Hosea 9:15 or Romans 9:13, it's seems hard to reconcile such passages. Our finite minds can not fully comprehend how the will of God works. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture and submit to the teaching of Scripture. We can not rely on our reason to understand how God Almighty works, but only his Word.

My view is that God hates wickedness, and yes he hates the wicked. At the same time, God does not delight in condemning the wicked to hell. He is a kind, compassionate merciful God, but he is also a God of justice.


A helpful article:
Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

This "Two Wills of God" is a fallacious teaching, meant to suggest God desires that not all men perish, and is unhappy that many are consigned to hell, which contradicts the doctrine of divine reprobation, altogether.

It is an apologetic for teaching a "common grace" that is not biblical at all.


It may seem fallacious to our human minds, but it's what God's Word teaches in both Ezekial 18 and 1 Timothy 2. God's revealed will and secret will are two different things.
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
Jakob,

Consider the whole of the Scriptures and its use of grace. Where has God shown grace and it wasn't specific, efficacious, and salvific in nature?
I in a sense think that right now we live in a point of Grace. I think that because God is not actively killing us for our sins, although it is to come, we have a sense of grace displayed towards us.

The only act of provision or grace, in my opinion that affects all humanity, is the fact that we all are not in hell at this moment. I think that it is an act of Grace that God has spared humanity as far as He has, although surely justice is to come only accordingly.

All I'm simply trying to say is that I see my food, house, books, clothes, and everything I have as God being gracious to me. It is an act towards an ill deserving sinner like myself and I simply call it grace, because it's undeserved.
 

kalawine

Puritan Board Junior
I've thought about this subject before when I've heard friends of mine say, "God hates the sin, but not the sinner." It's sounds like a nice cliche, but I don't know if it's Biblical. Any thoughts?

PSALM 5

4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
 

Reformed Rush

Puritan Board Freshman
When you first compare passages like Ezekiel 18:23 with Hosea 9:15 or Romans 9:13, it's seems hard to reconcile such passages. Our finite minds can not fully comprehend how the will of God works. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture and submit to the teaching of Scripture. We can not rely on our reason to understand how God Almighty works, but only his Word.

My view is that God hates wickedness, and yes he hates the wicked. At the same time, God does not delight in condemning the wicked to hell. He is a kind, compassionate merciful God, but he is also a God of justice.


A helpful article:
Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

This "Two Wills of God" is a fallacious teaching, meant to suggest God desires that not all men perish, and is unhappy that many are consigned to hell, which contradicts the doctrine of divine reprobation, altogether.

It is an apologetic for teaching a "common grace" that is not biblical at all.


It may seem fallacious to our human minds, but it's what God's Word teaches in both Ezekial 18 and 1 Timothy 2. God's revealed will and secret will are two different things.

I wholeheartedly disagree, but the subject deserves its own thread.

Jim
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
For the record.
"Hate the sin, love the sinner" was a quote from Ghandi.
Hate the sin, show evidences of love towards the sinner, because they are just as undeserving of the forgiveness displayed towards you as you are.
We have no right to justly or righteously hate them for we fall short of the standard we are attempting to hold them up to.
We can love the sinner and hate the sin, because we too are sinners and we too hate our own sin. But this is us.
 

Reformed Rush

Puritan Board Freshman
I in a sense think that right now we live in a point of Grace. I think that because God is not actively killing us for our sins, although it is to come, we have a sense of grace displayed towards us.

What you describe is God's long patient suffering with wickedness. And the only reason God suffers long with wicked men, is to work salvation for His elect. Once God saves the last elect soul, His patience with wickedness will abruptly end and Judgment Day will occur. No grace for the unrepentant reprobates on that Day!



All I'm simply trying to say is that I see my food, house, books, clothes, and everything I have as God being gracious to me. It is an act towards an ill deserving sinner like myself and I simply call it grace, because it's undeserved.

Such things are providential, earthly blessings. Even the reprobate enjoy food, houses, books, clothes, etc.

Grace has always to do with the saving of sinful souls from deserved punishment and death, through the substitutional sufferings of Jesus Christ, and nothing less. God's grace always saves for it is always based on the cross work of the Savior; performed for the elect sons of God, alone.
 

SoliDeoGloria

Puritan Board Freshman
Such things are providential, earthly blessings. Even the reprobate enjoy food, houses, books, clothes, etc.
Ultimately, what are acts of provision and blessings?

And what would you define grace as?

I ultimately see all things from God as an act of Grace for He does not have to do anything, but graciously, lovingly, and mercifully does.
I believe my food is a provision, given to me as an act of grace ultimately. I don't know of any theological reason as to suggest otherwise.
 

Reformed Rush

Puritan Board Freshman
Such things are providential, earthly blessings. Even the reprobate enjoy food, houses, books, clothes, etc.
Ultimately, what are acts of provision and blessings?

And what would you define grace as?

I ultimately see all things from God as an act of Grace for He does not have to do anything, but graciously, lovingly, and mercifully does.
I believe my food is a provision, given to me as an act of grace ultimately. I don't know of any theological reason as to suggest otherwise.

God's providence sustains temporal life for all.

God's grace brings eternal life through faith in Christ for the elect only.
 
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