Gods activity in regards to the reprobate and elect

[heywhatsup]

does God predestine the reprobabte to hell? i am utterly convinced that man in his natural sinful state is an enemy with God...that he hates God and will be no means surrender to God apart from the divine work of regeneration..is Gods work in the reprobate just as active..since God is active and must turn our hearts toward him is it just as true that God actively works against the reprobate to further harden his heart or is Gods activity with the reprobate more of God just passing over some and allowing them to continue in their sins and thus go to eternal destruction...Is predestination double?

 

[turmeric]

R.C.Sproul treats this question in hs book "Chosen by God", pretty well I think. Most Reformed don't find it necessary to believe that God actively works to make the reprobate reject Him - as you point out, they can manage that quite well on their own. It's the loving and surrendering to God we can't manage, because our will is bent; we don't wanna!

in my opinion I would hate to think of God actively making someone hate Him. After all, He is holy.

 

[Me Died Blue]

While He indeed does not need to work to keep men from Him (as many hyper-Calvinists would claim), because of their already-existent fallen nature and total depravity, it is also true that He ordained the Fall, though He is not the author of sin. I agree with Sproul that, as pointed out in Chosen By God, the relationship between those two truths (His ordination of the Fall yet His absence as the author of sin) is one of those mysteries that is unknown to us yet clearly taught in Scripture.

 

[heywhatsup]

i have read chosen by God and greatly appreciated his view...

i also believe that God ordains all things including the fall....and that this is a mystery...the secret things do truly belong to the Lord. i believe that predestination is active for the elect in that he works in us to bring about obedience and that predestination is passive in the reprobate..meaning that God passes over them and allows them and their choices to bring about their destruction as God has ordained for those who reject him


i would appreciate any further thoughts

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

In reading Romans 9, I find nothing to support the view that God is active in election but passive in reprobation. On the contrary, God raised up Pharaoh so that he might show forth his glory as he hardened Pharaoh's heart (v. 17). He loved Jacob and hated Esau before either was born (v. 11-13). God created and ordained vessels of mercy to everlasting life (v. 23) and vessels of wrath unto destruction (v. 22). He is a potter who fits some vessels for dishonor (v. 21). There is no cause to complain of injustice on the part of God here. God's ways are far above our ways. God is truly sovereign over reprobation as well as election. God is never the author of sin but is most wise and just in all of his ways, though we may not understand them comprehensively. We can take what he has revealed to us, and we can praise him for the grace and mercy that leads some men to everlasting life though none deserve it at all.

Here are a couple of articles by RC Sproul and Bavinck which deal with double predestination:

http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

http://www.the-highway.com/Bavinck_predestination.html

 

[Me Died Blue]

Andrew, I'm pretty sure we agree, but just may be using different terms. One analogy that may help clarify what I'm saying is that I definitely think that God has an active counterpart to unconditional election for the reprobate, but doesn't necessarily have an equally active, universal counterpart to irresistible grace for the reprobate (though He hardens in specific providencial situations), since total depravity is already in place.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I agree, Chris, that we are pretty much on the same page. What you have said is entirely Biblical and consistent with the Confession. I hope I am not adding confusion instead of clarification. When I object to the idea that God passively reprobates, ie., just leaves men in their sins to receive their just punishment but doesn't foreordain their eternal end, I am objecting to what I sense in single predestination theory (not from you or necessarily from anyone on this thread but broadly speaking) as a compromise with the Arminian-style God who enables some to be saved, but isn't sovereign over the sinners' end. I guess the point I am making is that it's not just a matter of God hardening the heart of the reprobate in specific situations. God creates the men whom he has predestined to everlasting punishment and this is to his glory. Everyone is created by God, and no one deserves heaven because everyone is guilty of their own sin as well as Adam's. God could have created only Jacobs, but he instead he also creates Esaus. Both redound to his glory. God is the potter and all men are the clay. God is sovereign over both election and reprobation and while no one deserves heaven and everyone deserves hell, yet God is just in his eternal decree which encompasses the end of all men.

 

[Me Died Blue]

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[heywhatsup]

i also agree..i am not saying there is no activity at all on Gods part...for of course there is..but it does not seem to me to be active in quite the same way thus i chose passive as a descriptive. God is completely sovereign over the affairs of all..and you are right he could have only created jacobs but he did not. he created vessels of dishonor...he created esaus to the glory of his justice. but i reject the thought that Gods activity in the reprobate is irresistible in the way it is of the elect...for we already love our darkness (john 3:19) and our natures are fallen thus God does not have to irresistably draw us to that sin bc we are already that way..yet he does have to override our natures to draw us to Him. he overrides our nature in the elect and he works with our nature in the reprobate. yet all of us God, from God and to God. to the glory of his name.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Concur!

 

[ReformedWretch]

Originally posted by heywhatsup
i also agree..i am not saying there is no activity at all on Gods part...for of course there is..but it does not seem to me to be active in quite the same way thus i chose passive as a descriptive. God is completely sovereign over the affairs of all..and you are right he could have only created jacobs but he did not. he created vessels of dishonor...he created esaus to the glory of his justice. but i reject the thought that Gods activity in the reprobate is irresistible in the way it is of the elect...for we already love our darkness (john 3:19) and our natures are fallen thus God does not have to irresistably draw us to that sin bc we are already that way..yet he does have to override our natures to draw us to Him. he overrides our nature in the elect and he works with our nature in the reprobate. yet all of us God, from God and to God. to the glory of his name.

Excellent!

 

[heywhatsup]

alrighty then! thanks folks..i am the only 5 pointer in my little baptist fellowship. because this is so many people ask questions about my views...they disagree with me most of the time...but they do it in a loving manner and i believe all of them are seeking (by Gods grace) the truth. i was just hoping i had answered this question correctly. actually my pastor preached a sermon on john 3:16 on sunday...i told him he preached as calvinist a sermon as an arminian could . he believes many of the points..but is just inconsistent in his logic. also he misrepresented calvinism in his sermon when he was rejecting it by attributing to God things not true.

 

[RickyReformed]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
I agree, Chris, that we are pretty much on the same page. What you have said is entirely Biblical and consistent with the Confession. I hope I am not adding confusion instead of clarification. When I object to the idea that God passively reprobates, ie., just leaves men in their sins to receive their just punishment but doesn't foreordain their eternal end, I am objecting to what I sense in single predestination theory (not from you or necessarily from anyone on this thread but broadly speaking) as a compromise with the Arminian-style God who enables some to be saved, but isn't sovereign over the sinners' end. I guess the point I am making is that it's not just a matter of God hardening the heart of the reprobate in specific situations. God creates the men whom he has predestined to everlasting punishment and this is to his glory. Everyone is created by God, and no one deserves heaven because everyone is guilty of their own sin as well as Adam's. God could have created only Jacobs, but he instead he also creates Esaus. Both redound to his glory. God is the potter and all men are the clay. God is sovereign over both election and reprobation and while no one deserves heaven and everyone deserves hell, yet God is just in his eternal decree which encompasses the end of all men.

Well said, Andrew.

See Calvin's Institutes Book I, Chapter 18, all four sections:

CHAPTER 18.

THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF THE WICKED EMPLOYED BY GOD, WHILE HE CONTINUES FREE FROM EVERY TAINT.14[0]

This last chapter of the First Book consists of three parts: I. It having been said above that God bends all the reprobate, and even Satan himself, at his will, three objections are started. First, that this happens by the permission, not by the will of God. To this objection there is a twofold reply, the one, that angels and men, good and bad, do nothing but what is appointed by God; the second, that all movements are secretly directed to their end by the hidden inspiration of God, sec. 1, 2. II. A second objection is, that there are two contrary wills in God, if by a secret counsel he decrees what he openly prohibits by his law. This objection refuted, sec. 3. III. The third objection is, that God is made the author of all wickedness, when he is said not only to use the agency of the wicked, but also to govern their counsels and affections, and that therefore the wicked are unjustly punished. This objection refuted in the last section.

Sections.

1. The carnal mind the source of the objections which are raised against the Providence of God. A primary objection, making a distinction between the permission and the will of God, refuted. Angels and men, good and bad, do nought but what has been decreed by God. This proved by examples.

2. All hidden movements directed to their end by the unseen but righteous instigation of God. Examples, with answers to objections.

3. These objections originate in a spirit of pride and blasphemy. Objection, that there must be two contrary wills in God, refuted. Why the one simple will of God seems to us as if it were manifold.

4. Objection, that God is the author of sin, refuted by examples. Augustine's answer and admonition.

from Chapter 18 at http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/institutes/booki/booki24.htm#fn49

Almost made me flinch the first time I read it.

 

[jacobiloved]

To throw another aspect into the question , why do you think God calls the Reprobate to be saved ........ we know He calls 'all men' , and it is obvious when Jesus sent out the Gospel that it would be to a mixed (Elect and reprobate) multitude.

 

[Ianterrell]

jacobiloved,

God indeed calls all men to repent and believe which is the only way that man can be saved. This can in my opinion be viewed in the same way that God commands allegiece to his Law. It is even worse when sinners reject the Gospel in which they would receive freedom from all debts to God.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

God called on Jeremiah to prophesy in His name. God knew beforehand and told Jeremiah beforehand that many would reject him and not repent. This is no different than God knowing who won't repent and believe, yet calling on all men to do so.

 

[jacobiloved]

Originally posted by Ianterrell
jacobiloved,

God indeed calls all men to repent and believe which is the only way that man can be saved. This can in my opinion be viewed in the same way that God commands allegiece to his Law. It is even worse when sinners reject the Gospel in which they would receive freedom from all debts to God.

that is one aspect that I have slowly been seeing , the Gospel as exposure .......... thanks for your response it confirms some of my thoughts , although I am not willing to abandon some desire , or emotion in God , a longing if you will to call even the reprobate to LIFE ....