God Gave Wine: What The Bible Says About Alcohol - by Kennet

Discussion in 'The Literary Forum' started by luvroftheWord, May 19, 2004.

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  1. luvroftheWord

    luvroftheWord Puritan Board Sophomore

    This book is a must-read. It is quite simply one of the best books ever written on the subject. I cannot conceive of how prohibitionists argue against it.
     
  2. a

    a Puritan Board Freshman

    a good book for boot leggers... hehehe

    ok, i'm a dork

    [Edited on 5-19-2004 by ace]
     
  3. king of fools

    king of fools Puritan Board Freshman

    I heard a radio-sermon by John McArthur against alcohol. He said that he couldn't believe that God would have created alcohol as a good thing, because it can make people drunk. I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony.
     
  4. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Yeah that MacArthur guy's a little rough around the edges. It's consistent with his Dispensational roots though. Anybody ever read Drinking with Calvin and Luther?
     
  5. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:4ae895de21]I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony.[/quote:4ae895de21]

    And sex...look what THAT leads to in many instances.
     
  6. JWJ

    JWJ Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:112bf9d0b6][i:112bf9d0b6]Originally posted by king of fools[/i:112bf9d0b6]
    I heard a radio-sermon by John McArthur against alcohol. He said that he couldn't believe that God would have created alcohol as a good thing, because it can make people drunk. I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony. [/quote:112bf9d0b6]

    McArthur seems to be going more and more down hill in his theology, and from what I hear, even his Calvinism (I stopped reading McArthur 7 years ago!). How great it would be to sit with Luther (who loved to have his stein full when preparing sermons and lectures) and Calvin (who, in his travels, could not wait to get to the next town to sample the brew) and drink a couple of lager beers. I would even offer them a good cigar from my humidor that would compliment the beer and our conversation.

    Jim


    PS One local micro brewery, Lake Front Brewery, makes a killer cherry Lager.
     
  7. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    Mac may be against it, but ...

    Down here in the South in fundie cuntrie, MacArthur's view isn't good enough. On the BBN (radio) his sermons (GTY program) get "on-air" editing or they simply won't get played at all (if that night he's too 'calvinistic' or other). In the past year or two his messages touched on alchohol. They played the first one or two. Then I tuned in the next night and his 1/2 hour was just dead air. They know their $$upport base. If their listeners call in--or in order to head them off at the pass--they'll censor in a heartbeat.

    I've listened to MacArthur over the years with great profit. Can't agree with everything. Can't listen to him on Daniel or Revelation--too much of a Dispensational. But he's a good handler of the Word. And very practical. If anything, I believe his Calvinism has gotten much more consistent than it was 10-15 years ago. He finally seemed to embrace the "L" in TULIP. There's a lot of garbage on the radio. I think he's a good antidote. What do you think?
     
  8. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Yeah from what I've heard he has embraced the "L" and become a full fledged 5-pointer. I don't agree with everything but like you I"ve profited from his teachings.
     
  9. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    [quote:3d325e5d10][i:3d325e5d10]Originally posted by Newly Reformed[/i:3d325e5d10]
    [quote:3d325e5d10]I had to wonder what he thinks about food ... becuase it could lead someone to gluttony.[/quote:3d325e5d10]

    And sex...look what THAT leads to in many instances. [/quote:3d325e5d10]

    Reminds me of a good word from Martin Luther: "Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?" Also, how on earth can MacArthur square his view of God's approval of alcohol with the fact that Jesus partook of it, and that it played a key role under the Old Covenant as well? (But I guess the latter of these two reasons wouldn't really be a reason for MacArthur at all, in light of his Dispensationalism.)

    An [i:3d325e5d10]excellent[/i:3d325e5d10] site on the topic I think you should all check out is http://members.aol.com/Dbix7/beer.html.

    In Christ,

    Chris

    [Edited on 5-20-2004 by Me Died Blue]
     
  10. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    :ditto:
     
  11. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    [quote:253d8f9b33][i:253d8f9b33]Originally posted by joshua[/i:253d8f9b33]
    I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:253d8f9b33]

    I agree, but it would still be most desirable to not have [i:253d8f9b33]either[/i:253d8f9b33] error.

    In Christ,

    Chris
     
  12. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    [quote:93eeb56ae2][i:93eeb56ae2]Originally posted by joshua[/i:93eeb56ae2]
    [quote:93eeb56ae2][i:93eeb56ae2]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:93eeb56ae2]
    [quote:93eeb56ae2][i:93eeb56ae2]Originally posted by joshua[/i:93eeb56ae2]
    I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:93eeb56ae2]

    I agree, but it would still be most desirable to not have [i:93eeb56ae2]either[/i:93eeb56ae2] error.

    In Christ,

    Chris [/quote:93eeb56ae2]

    Aye...most desirable, but not most probable. [/quote:93eeb56ae2]

    Within the broad evangelical community as a whole, I would probably agree. But within the Reformed community, it seems like it is not only probable, but that it's often in action. Most contemporary Reformed leaders, ministers and authors who have a great grip on the biblical Gospel also understand and appreciate alcohol's rich history in the church--people like Gentry, Jim West, R. C. Sproul, Jr., people on this board, etc.

    In Christ,

    Chris
     
  13. Bladestunner316

    Bladestunner316 Puritan Board Doctor

    alchohal is nasty anyway but I dont care as long as u dont get drunk :cool:
     
  14. MICWARFIELD

    MICWARFIELD Puritan Board Freshman

    Ian,

    I have read "Drinking with Calvin and Luther". It's a pretty good read by Jim West. Have you read it? I liked the beer ratings at the end of the book. I found myself in agreement with most of the ratings.
    The book seemed to focus more on history than the exposistion of scripture. But that's to be expected - the subtitle being "A History of Alchohol in the Church".

    Mike
     
  15. Bryan

    Bryan Puritan Board Freshman

    I don't think MacArthur's theology has gone down hill at all. His teaching has greatly profited me. I may not agree with everything he says, but he has a firm grasp on the truth and an unweavering commitment to share it.

    I used to be against christians drinking but after much consider I've change my mind. Personally I don't drink (for a few reasons), but if a Christian wants to, and can do it within reason go for it.

    Bryan
    SDG
     
  16. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Mike,

    I haven't read the book myself, though I have read some excerpts. I'll probably buy it when the right time comes.
     
  17. JWJ

    JWJ Puritan Board Freshman

    Other than his dispensational inconsistencies and teetotalling, how has been going "more and more down hill' in his theology and Calvinism? [/quote]

    I am not sure because I have not read or listen to him for at least a few years now. This information was based on what I have been hearing from some people and internet sites-though to be honest I did not enquire further as to the charges since McArthur does not interest me.

    However, the last time I heard him peach was at Piper's Pastors Conference in I believe 97'. I thought, as well as others, that he made some off the wall comments in his preaching (though many people say this not uncommon for him). Moreover, when I read his book on the gospel I thought there were many questionable inconsistencies and possible errors. Though it could have been just poor wording. Nevertheless, I decided 7 years ago to stick with, in my opinion, better and more consistent champions of the faith.

    Jim
     
  18. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    [quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by joshua[/i:1a9208152e]
    [quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:1a9208152e]
    [quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by joshua[/i:1a9208152e]
    [quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:1a9208152e]
    [quote:1a9208152e][i:1a9208152e]Originally posted by joshua[/i:1a9208152e]
    I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:1a9208152e]

    I agree, but it would still be most desirable to not have [i:1a9208152e]either[/i:1a9208152e] error.

    In Christ,

    Chris [/quote:1a9208152e]


    Aye...most desirable, but not most probable. [/quote:1a9208152e]

    Within the broad evangelical community as a whole, I would probably agree. But within the Reformed community, it seems like it is not only probable, but that it's often in action. Most contemporary Reformed leaders, ministers and authors who have a great grip on the biblical Gospel also understand and appreciate alcohol's rich history in the church--people like Gentry, Jim West, R. C. Sproul, Jr., people on this board, etc.

    In Christ,

    Chris [/quote:1a9208152e]


    I agree, but there can be such a thing as majoring on the minors...and we're all guilty of that at times.

    [Edited on 5-20-2004 by joshua] [/quote:1a9208152e]

    Yeah, I can definitely relate to that.

    In Christ,

    Chris
     
  19. JWJ

    JWJ Puritan Board Freshman

    [/quote]

    For the sake of my ignorance can you point out some of these "inconsistencies and possible errrors"? This would be extremely helpful in my own assessment. Thanks. [/quote]

    I will try to look at my notes this weekend-- Remember it has been at least 7 or so years-- and dig up the info. However, it may not be until next week as I am going to be very busy this weekend-- going out of town.

    Jim
     
  20. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    I do not drink, though I cannot on biblical grounds disagree with those who do. Has anyone read what Piper has to say about drinking? It is pretty good. I especially like this paragraph:
    "This inclines me toward total abstinence, first in relation to myself and then in relation to others. In relation to myself, what this says to me is that alcohol could hinder me in what I want most, namely to recognize and to do the will of God. The Bible says, "Be renewed in the spirit of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect"(Rom. 12:2). And in another place, "Do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is" (Eph. 5:17). The mature believer does not ask: How many enjoyable things can I do and still not transgress God's will?" But rather: Is there anything at all that I can do or stop doing which will refine my ability to recognize and do the will of God. In general, drinking alcoholic beverages does not increase one's sensitivity to the will of God. On the contrary, it weakens the intensity of our desire to be holy as God is holy. Therefore, I feel no need whatsoever to make wine or beer or any other alcoholic beverage part of my diet. It contradicts and threatens what I value most."

    That summarizes my feelings pretty well. The whole article may be viewed here: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/81/100481p.html

    Also, regarding the point that food can also lead to sin, I must say that it is much easier with alcohol to dive into sin. By that I mean, I can eat a good steak and feel OK. I feel no need to keep eating more and more steak once I finish.

    Food (and sex, for that matter) is necessary for survival (food for both personal and species survival, sex for the latter). Alcohol is not.

    But, like I said, I do not condemn those who drink. I just choose not to do so myself.

    What do I know? I am just some fundamentalist, Baptist, southerner. :D

    Lon

    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird]
     
  21. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:e13963f0c1][i:e13963f0c1]Originally posted by joshua[/i:e13963f0c1]
    MacArthur (Paraphrased): "If you want to drink, that's fine, but don't say you're drinking because the Bible commends it (wine, etc.), because the wine then and the wine today is not the same."

    This I heard in a MacArthur sermon on the issue.
    [/quote:e13963f0c1]

    MacArthur proves he's no historian nor enologist.

    [quote:e13963f0c1]I'd rather have Teetotallers who have the Gospel right, than those who are highly knowledgeable in the area of Christian liberty but have the gospel all confused. [/quote:e13963f0c1]

    What is the gospel other than God has entered the world to redeem creation? Part of the good news is that we can now enjoy the fruit of creation because of our relationship with the Creator.

    I'm afraid the abstinence folks do not have a comprehensive view of the gospel message.
     
  22. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:f4435c4b14][i:f4435c4b14]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:f4435c4b14]
    Part of the good news is that we can now enjoy the fruit of creation because of our relationship with the Creator.
    [/quote:f4435c4b14]

    You will want to watch yourself with this argument, as the same could be said of marijuana (from a plant which undergoes much less of a process to be useable than does alcohol). For that matter, you could say the same about cocaine (from the coca leaf) and heroin (from the poppy...I think).

    Lon
     
  23. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:44e444f86a][i:44e444f86a]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:44e444f86a]
    I do not drink, though I cannot on biblical grounds disagree with those who do. Has anyone read what Piper has to say about drinking? It is pretty good. I especially like this paragraph:
    "This inclines me toward total abstinence, first in relation to myself and then in relation to others. In relation to myself, what this says to me is that alcohol could hinder me in what I want most, namely to recognize and to do the will of God. The Bible says, "Be renewed in the spirit of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect"(Rom. 12:2). And in another place, "Do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is" (Eph. 5:17). The mature believer does not ask: How many enjoyable things can I do and still not transgress God's will?" But rather: Is there anything at all that I can do or stop doing which will refine my ability to recognize and do the will of God. [b:44e444f86a]In general, drinking alcoholic beverages does not increase one's sensitivity to the will of God. [/b:44e444f86a] On the contrary, it weakens the intensity of our desire to be holy as God is holy. Therefore, I feel no need whatsoever to make wine or beer or any other alcoholic beverage part of my diet. It contradicts and threatens what I value most."

    That summarizes my feelings pretty well. The whole article may be viewed here: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/81/100481p.html
    [/quote:44e444f86a]

    Neither does eating a good steak. I'm sure Piper has never been a bit drowsy in the afternoon after a nice lunch. I know I have. I have yet to hear any Christian leader say, "You know, I think I'm going to skip that big lunch today because I have an important meeting in the afternoon and I know what it can do to me."

    I do not understand why Piper (and others) seems compelled to single out alcohol and not other pleasurable activites that we all enjoy.

    [quote:44e444f86a]

    Also, regarding the point that food can also lead to sin, I must say that it is much easier with alcohol to dive into sin. By that I mean, I can eat a good steak and feel OK. I feel no need to keep eating more and more steak once I finish.
    [/quote:44e444f86a]

    But that's just you and your tastes. There are other folks whose sin leads them to overeat, just as there are folks whose sin leads them to drink too much. I am quite satisfied with one or two beers.


    [quote:44e444f86a]

    Food (and sex, for that matter) is necessary for survival (food for both personal and species survival, sex for the latter). Alcohol is not.
    [/quote:44e444f86a]

    Well, if you are going to reduce it to the utilitarian level, there is no reason to eat a steak. You can get the same nutrition from tofu and vegetables. There is no reason to drink anything but water.

    We eat steak and drink ale because we enjoy them. It's part of the blessing of creation. It's part of the gospel.

    [quote:44e444f86a]
    But, like I said, I do not condemn those who drink. I just choose not to do so myself.

    What do I know? I am just some fundamentalist, Baptist, southerner. :D

    Lon

    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird] [/quote:44e444f86a]

    If one doesn't care for alcohol, then no problem.

    If one abstains for the sake of a "weaker brother" then I have no quarrel. But often this is used, not because of the weaker brother who may be truly troubled by the use of alcohol, but to placate the sensibilities of the "superior brother" who categorically believes drinking is "unspiritual" and sinful. It's not unlike Peter's actions in Galatians when he withdrew from the gentiles when the folks from Jerusalem arrived on the scene.

    Even in the case of the weaker brother, I might argue that it would be better to teach them biblically how to control and moderate their enjoyment of alcohol. I'm not a fan of AA and the "once a drunk always a drunk" mentality. That is humanism at work. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is unable to rid a drunk of their sinful habits.

    [quote:44e444f86a]
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators... [b:44e444f86a]nor drunkards[/b:44e444f86a], ... will inherit the kingdom of God. [b:44e444f86a]Such were some of you[/b:44e444f86a]; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
    [/quote:44e444f86a]

    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by tcalbrecht]
     
  24. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:54f74e13fb][i:54f74e13fb]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:54f74e13fb]
    [quote:54f74e13fb][i:54f74e13fb]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:54f74e13fb]
    Part of the good news is that we can now enjoy the fruit of creation because of our relationship with the Creator.
    [/quote:54f74e13fb]

    You will want to watch yourself with this argument, as the same could be said of marijuana (from a plant which undergoes much less of a process to be useable than does alcohol). For that matter, you could say the same about cocaine (from the coca leaf) and heroin (from the poppy...I think).

    Lon [/quote:54f74e13fb]

    Were marijuana and coca leaves present in the garden that God created and declared "very good"? Or were they created later?

    I would be more concerned about questioning God's wisdom in creating the specific plants and animals He did for our benefit.
     
  25. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:f45441ae6b][i:f45441ae6b]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:f45441ae6b]
    Were marijuana and coca leaves present in the garden that God created and declared "very good"? Or were they created later?

    I would be more concerned about questioning God's wisdom in creating the specific plants and animals He did for our benefit. [/quote:f45441ae6b]

    Were hops and barley there or were they created later?

    I resent the insinuation that I am questioning God's wisdom in creating certain things. We should be more cordial to one another over such a secondary (or even tertiary) topic.

    I am, rather, questioning our use of certain things God created.

    Lon



    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird]
     
  26. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:c6ba435478][i:c6ba435478]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:c6ba435478]
    Were hops and barley there or were they created later?

    [/quote:c6ba435478]

    Created by whom?

    [quote:c6ba435478]
    I resent the insinuation that I am questioning God's wisdom in creating certain things. We should be more cordial to one another over such a secondary (or even tertiary) topic.

    I am, rather, questioning our use of certain things God created.

    Lon



    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird] [/quote:c6ba435478]

    I didn't mean to offend you, I was just wondering about your presuppositions. There is nothing inherently evil in marijuana or barley, or a nice steak for that matter. So, I would say that the issue is not use but abuse. At least this seems to be the picture painted in the Bible.
     
  27. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:8cbf80b980]
    Were marijuana and coca leaves present in the garden that God created and declared "very good"? Or were they created later?
    [/quote:8cbf80b980]

    Forgive me for being too subtle with my question.

    My point is that of course all those plants were in the creation garden and given the stamp of "very good" by the Creator.

    I can't find anywhere in the Bible where using marijuana is per se condemned as sinful.

    Today any use is considered sinful because any use violates the laws of the state (except in certain countries).

    But that sinfulness is analogous to the sinfulness of using alcohol during Prohibition. Or of marrying your first cousin in states where it is against the law to marry your cousin. In the Bible it is not a sin to marry your cousin.
     
  28. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Tom... :amen:

    In all seriousness that's one of the problems I have with american evangelicalism is that they have dumped the moral law of God and taken up a new standard, a man-made one. Piper and MacArthur's New Covenant thelology forces them to adhere to man-made laws!

    It's so sad when the people of God have a lot to say when scripture remains silent. The Bible defines for us the proper usage of alchohol we don't need pharisaic burdens to protect us from "missing the will of God." All Christianity needs is its own Talmud.



    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by Ianterrell]
     
  29. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:51ae8ee238][i:51ae8ee238]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:51ae8ee238]
    Tom... :amen:

    In all seriousness that's one of the problems I have with american evangelicalism is that they have dumped the moral law of God and taken up a new standard, a man-made one. Piper and MacArthur's New Covenant thelology forces them to adhere to man-made laws!

    It's so sad when the people of God have a lot to say when scripture remains silent. The Bible defines for us the proper usage of alchohol we don't need pharisaic burdens to protect us from "missing the will of God." All Christianity needs is its own Talmud.



    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:51ae8ee238]


    [quote:51ae8ee238]
    There is growing up in society a Pharisaic system which adds to the commands of God the precepts of men; to that system I will not yield for an hour. The preservation of my liberty may bring upon me the upbraidings of many good men, and the sneers of the self-righteous; but I shall endure both with serenity so long as I feel clear in my conscience before God.

    ...

    If through smoking I had wasted an hour of my time-if I had stinted my gifts to the poor-if I had rendered my mind less vigorous-I trust I should see my fault and turn from it; but he who charges me with these things shall have no answer but my forgiveness.

    (CH Spurgeon on the subject of "smoking to the glory of God".)
    [/quote:51ae8ee238]
     
  30. A.J.A.

    A.J.A. Puritan Board Freshman

    From what I've read, chewed coca leaves and tea brewed from coca leaves are good for you if you live in very high elevations -- like the Andes. So it was put where it was meant to be for the people who were meant to have it.
     
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