earl40
Puritan Board Professor
And if I remember you think such a hybrid existed?
Ghosts and haunted houses
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And if I remember you think such a hybrid existed?
Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying...
This episode occurred after the Crucifixion. While Christ dealt with an abnormally large number of demons (who might have gathered at this strategic juncture in Israel to oppose the Messiah), the presence and work of evil spirits, nonetheless, still continued after Christ ascended into heaven.
The early church fathers speak of demons. The Medieval Church speaks of them.
There is a famous quote from Athanasious (let me find it) that speaks of magic ceasing and demons fleeing as Christianity expands. The demons only has as much power as we give them.
On the Incarnation has some quotes, but here is Athanasius from the life of Anthony:
"And let each one of you consider this, and he will be able to despise the demons...But the demons as they have no power are like actors on the stage changing their shape and frightening children with tumultuous apparition and various forms: from which they ought rather to be despised as showing their weakness. At least the true Angel of the Lord sent against the Assyrian had no need for tumults nor displays from without, nor noises nor rattlings, but in quiet he used his power and immediately destroyed a hundred and eighty-five thousand. But demons like these, who have no power, try to terrify at least by their displays.
30 'So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.
31 And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them...
...33 'Thus in days gone by arose the oracles of the Greeks, and thus they were led astray by the demons. But thus also thenceforth their deception was brought to an end by the coming of the Lord , who brought to nought the demons and their devices...So if the demons sometimes do the same by guesswork, let no one wonder at it or heed them."
The desert fathers claimed to have seen demons and often been tempted by them. Even Martin Luther reports being confronted by the devil.
I am not prepared to call all of them liars.
In fact, there is no record of any total cessation of dark spiritual activity throughout the history of the Church. At the time of the Protestant Reformation they focused more on the interal and moral aspects of sin and the flesh, and often downplayed the direct role of the devil or demons. Yet, there are records of Puritan possessions and exorcisms, Puritans dealing with witchcract or supposed witchcraft.
The real turning point was the Enlightenment when Christians found out that many of their cases of witchcraft were false accusations and it gave religion a black eye. But some hysteria in Salem does not mean the devil is finished actually working against us.
This episode occurred after the Crucifixion. While Christ dealt with an abnormally large number of demons (who might have gathered at this strategic juncture in Israel to oppose the Messiah), the presence and work of evil spirits, nonetheless, still continued after Christ ascended into heaven.
The early church fathers speak of demons. The Medieval Church speaks of them.
There is a famous quote from Athanasious (let me find it) that speaks of magic ceasing and demons fleeing as Christianity expands. The demons only has as much power as we give them.
On the Incarnation has some quotes, but here is Athanasius from the life of Anthony:
"And let each one of you consider this, and he will be able to despise the demons...But the demons as they have no power are like actors on the stage changing their shape and frightening children with tumultuous apparition and various forms: from which they ought rather to be despised as showing their weakness. At least the true Angel of the Lord sent against the Assyrian had no need for tumults nor displays from without, nor noises nor rattlings, but in quiet he used his power and immediately destroyed a hundred and eighty-five thousand. But demons like these, who have no power, try to terrify at least by their displays.
30 'So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.
31 And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them...
...33 'Thus in days gone by arose the oracles of the Greeks, and thus they were led astray by the demons. But thus also thenceforth their deception was brought to an end by the coming of the Lord , who brought to nought the demons and their devices...So if the demons sometimes do the same by guesswork, let no one wonder at it or heed them."
The desert fathers claimed to have seen demons and often been tempted by them. Even Martin Luther reports being confronted by the devil.
I am not prepared to call all of them liars.
In fact, there is no record of any total cessation of dark spiritual activity throughout the history of the Church. At the time of the Protestant Reformation they focused more on the interal and moral aspects of sin and the flesh, and often downplayed the direct role of the devil or demons. Yet, there are records of Puritan possessions and exorcisms, Puritans dealing with witchcract or supposed witchcraft.
The real turning point was the Enlightenment when Christians found out that many of their cases of witchcraft were false accusations and it gave religion a black eye. But some hysteria in Salem does not mean the devil is finished actually working against us.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I wouldn't say "angel-human" hybrid for several reasons:
a) An angel is simply a malak. A messenger. It is a functional term, not an ontological term.
b) The real question is what is the ontology of the beney elohim.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Or even better: why do people investigating a 500 year old haunted house in Germany speak to the ghosts in English?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Exists is present tense. I don't think they currently exist. King David killed the last remnant of the Rephaim and Anakim.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
The ontology is 100% human beings.
Sons of God:
Job 1:6 and other places show that Sons of God means the angels. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."
"(Old Testament) (bene ha-'elohim, "sons of God" (Genesis 6:2,4; Job 1:6; 2:1); bene 'elohim, "sons of God" (Job 38:7); bene 'elim, "ye mighty," the King James Version; "ye sons of the mighty," King James Version margin, the Revised Version (British and American); "sons of God" or "sons of the gods," the Revised Version margin (Psalms 29:1); "sons of the mighty," the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American); "sons of God" or "sons of the gods," the Revised Version margin (Psalms 89:6)); Septuagint huioi tou theou, hoi aggeloi tou theou (Genesis 6:2); huioi tou theou (Genesis 6:4); hoi aggeloi tou theou (Job 1:6; 2:1); aggeloi mou (Job 38:7); huioi theou (Psalms 29:1; 89:6; compare Daniel 3:25)."
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Rev. Winzer sums up the idea of such entertainment....."If one entertains the idea that fallen angels can have sexual relations with human beings and produce a monster offspring he can read anything into the Bible and be open to any kind of experience."
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
In logic this is called an assertion, and it doesn't make sense of any passage.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
This is rich. Perg offered an exegetical argument and you responded by mocking him.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
You ought to read such with more charity.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
The alternative to the Divine Council reading of Psalm 82 is that the beney elohim are not spirit-beings (angels, to use a very inaccurate term), but Jewish elders. If you hold this view, then the following entail:
- These Jewish dudes are in heaven (while they are inhabiting earth, I guess?) having a council with Yahweh. But we have no evidence that Jewish guys routinely met in heaven to discuss rule on earth (similar language is used in Psalm 89, but it says “cloud,” which only sharpens the problem).
- One of James Jordan’s students says this refers to the meeting Yahweh had with Moses and the 70 elders in Exodus 24. There are several huge problems with this:
a) The text nowhere says this.
b) The ending of the meeting in Exodus 24 is positive (or neutral, at worst). Psalm 82 is a condemnation throughout. These are clearly two different events. - Jewish elders are never promised that they would rule over the nations, so it isn’t clear how they figure into Psalm 82. Modern Talmudists believe they do in fact rule over the nations, but that’s a different point.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Then that should begin with your actually working through Perg's exegetical argument instead of saying, "Winzer said such people will believe anything" (paraphrase)
Also, Rev Winzer said a lot of stuff. He is not infallible, especially in matters of the free offer, drinking alcohol, and the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Afterthought
Puritan Board Senior
Confessionally, the "ghosts" are not human spirits.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption;a but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence,b immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies:c and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.d Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
People have superstitious and idolatrous worldviews, and some will attribute phenomenon to "ghosts" or lesser deities, but there is only one God.
Q. 5. Are there more Gods than one?
A. There is but one only, the living and true God.
Edit: Matthew Poole on Psalm 82.
"This Psalm contains an admonition, either, 1. To the chief rulers of Israel, whether judges or kings, or their great council called the Sanhedrim. Or rather,
2. To all the rulers of the several nations of the world, to whom this word might come; as may be gathered, partly from the expressions here used, which are general, and not peculiar to the governors of Israel, and therefore not rashly and unnecessarily to be restrained; and partly from the last verse, where he mentions the whole earth and all nations as concerned in the contents of this Psalm.
The psalmist, exhorting and expostulating with the judges, Psa_82:1-4, reproveth their want of judgment and negligence, Psa_82:5-7, and prayeth the Lord to judge, Psa_82:8."
If there are other "elohim" [in the senses that seem to be used in this thread? I'm aware the word can be translated by angels], how is Jesus one substance with the Father? He might be another elohim: the first of elohim among the others but still less than the Father. Indeed, at the very least, most of the proof texts for Christ's divinity will only show him to be greater than the other elohim.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption;a but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence,b immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies:c and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.d Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
People have superstitious and idolatrous worldviews, and some will attribute phenomenon to "ghosts" or lesser deities, but there is only one God.
Q. 5. Are there more Gods than one?
A. There is but one only, the living and true God.
Edit: Matthew Poole on Psalm 82.
"This Psalm contains an admonition, either, 1. To the chief rulers of Israel, whether judges or kings, or their great council called the Sanhedrim. Or rather,
2. To all the rulers of the several nations of the world, to whom this word might come; as may be gathered, partly from the expressions here used, which are general, and not peculiar to the governors of Israel, and therefore not rashly and unnecessarily to be restrained; and partly from the last verse, where he mentions the whole earth and all nations as concerned in the contents of this Psalm.
The psalmist, exhorting and expostulating with the judges, Psa_82:1-4, reproveth their want of judgment and negligence, Psa_82:5-7, and prayeth the Lord to judge, Psa_82:8."
If there are other "elohim" [in the senses that seem to be used in this thread? I'm aware the word can be translated by angels], how is Jesus one substance with the Father? He might be another elohim: the first of elohim among the others but still less than the Father. Indeed, at the very least, most of the proof texts for Christ's divinity will only show him to be greater than the other elohim.
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I'll not deal with demons, but to the OP: the universality could come from our God-given desire to understand his world. If you don't know why something happened the "spirit world" gives an explanation. Christianity and science generally drive superstitions away.
My initial experience in this area was when the Lord converted me while in College, as a good friend of mine was really into TM, and during one of his trances, he thought that he was being attacked by evil dark forces. I witnessed to Him, and prayed that God would protect Him, and urged him to come to Christ and swear off any more TM dabbling.
I think that your last point about many underestimating the Supernatural due to Charismatic foolishness in this real is spot on, as we need to be aware that Satan and His demons are active at this present time, and are trying to gain footholds into even lives of unsuspecting Christians who might feel drawn to dabble around a bit with Ghosts, Ufos, etc.
Jesus is far greater then any elohim, as He alone is very God of very God.. Was that last quote from Matthew Poole then?
Sometimes though science can be taken to the extreme of there not even being any Supernatural forces, such as in no God.
Afterthought
Puritan Board Senior
See Calvin's comments on 1 Cor 8 and 10. The earth is the Lord's and all the fulness thereof. Defilement does not come from things because an idol is nothing, and there is only one God, but defilement comes from the intention of the one who worships the idol. The piece of wood or stone is God's creature and is good in and of itself. The believer defiles himself by partaking with wicked persons to worship devils (they participate in the worship of false gods by eating at the idol tables), not by making use of the things that were consecrated to the idols/non-entities. The defilement is thus a moral defilement (perhaps a link here to nothing that goes into the body defiling a person but only what comes out of the wicked heart), rather than a defilement that inheres in objects.
To the pure all things are pure. There is no real defilement in "haunted" houses. It's just a house. If it was connected with devil worship, the only defilement that could take place would be of the person who had an impure intention in making use of the house. To the impure, nothing is pure--not even a normal house, since they receive it not from the hand of God (who truly owns it) and defile it with the idolatries of their heart.
This is the condition under the NT. So far as the OT references go, the argument Paul makes for the NT is from the OT, so this must have (in an absolute sense) been true in the OT also. However, there is clearly a concept of ceremonial defilement in the OT that is abolished in the NT (which is why it appears again in Revelation, which uses OT concepts to explain spiritual truths). It was possible for things and objects to be ceremonially unclean, but this is not true now. Ceremonial purity is used to teach about moral purity, e.g., avoiding the garment stained by the flesh.
To the pure all things are pure. There is no real defilement in "haunted" houses. It's just a house. If it was connected with devil worship, the only defilement that could take place would be of the person who had an impure intention in making use of the house. To the impure, nothing is pure--not even a normal house, since they receive it not from the hand of God (who truly owns it) and defile it with the idolatries of their heart.
This is the condition under the NT. So far as the OT references go, the argument Paul makes for the NT is from the OT, so this must have (in an absolute sense) been true in the OT also. However, there is clearly a concept of ceremonial defilement in the OT that is abolished in the NT (which is why it appears again in Revelation, which uses OT concepts to explain spiritual truths). It was possible for things and objects to be ceremonially unclean, but this is not true now. Ceremonial purity is used to teach about moral purity, e.g., avoiding the garment stained by the flesh.
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Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Folks who don't believe in haunted houses never lived in one.
That goes without saying.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
My wife thinks our house is haunted when I am home.
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
Have her read some of Jacobs posts and then ask what she thinks of you.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
TM is pretty close to astral projection. Tibetan Buddhism is a very dark form of sorcery.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I've been listening to interviews of people who had multiple personalities and dissociative identities from Satanic Ritual Abuse. Astral projection was involved. I am beginning to suspect that what we often call "haunted houses" might be astral projection.
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