Getting Ministerial Succession & Lawful Ordination Right

[Scott]

"The problem with this is the line of Anti-Popes and those they ordained."

What is your understanding of what happened to those ordained by anti-popes? I imagine that the Catholics handled this in some way, as they are rather scrupulous about ordinations.

"Another problem is those bishops that were ordained in England by Papist sympathizers, who were later defrocked, but those that they had ordained were not."

This depends on part on whether there is a power to defrock. Catholics teach that orders last forever. Turretin appealed to this Catholic view in part in his defense of the calls of the first reformers (though he did not necessarily endorse it - could be read as more of an "even on their terms our ordinations should be valid.")

Scott

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

That is why a correct understanding of mark #1 is so important. if we do not have the Gospel right, then the rest of theology goes into the trash. Sound doctrine must be contended for that the church remains the pillar and ground of truth.

The RPCGA BCO states:

However, the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly rejects the following teachings and practices as unacceptable to the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the New Testament Church, and forbids the teaching and/or practice of such systems within the membership of the church:

(1) charismatic theology and its unbiblical practices
(2) dispensational theology
(3) Arminian theology in any form
(4) the practice of `altar calls´ in the worship of God
(5) the participation in abortions in any form
(6) the teaching, practice, or promotion of homosexuality in any form or type
(7) participation in any secret society which violates the Scriptures or Confession
(8) neo-orthodox and neo-evangelical theology in any form
(9) modernism and humanism in all forms
(10) the teaching, practice and promotion of feminism
(11) the teaching of evolution in any type or form.

 

[Scott]

"What degree of faithfulness must a church have to the marks to be a true church?"

Calvin had these helpful comments in Book 4 of Institutes. Note how longsuffering in doctrine and nearly all things Calvin is.

They exclaim that it is impossible to tolerate the vice which everywhere stalks abroad like a pestilence. What if the apostle's sentiment applies here also? Among the Corinthians it was not a few that erred, but almost the whole body had become tainted; there was not one species of sin merely, but a multitude, and those not trivial errors but some of them execrable crimes. There was not only corruption in manners, but also in doctrine. What course was taken by the holy apostle, in other words, by the organ of the heavenly Spirit, by whose testimony the Church stands and falls? Does he seek separation from them? Does he discard them from the kingdom of Christ? Does he strike them with the thunder of a final anathema? He not only does none of these things, but he acknowledges and heralds them as a Church of Christ, and a society of saints. If the Church remains among the Corinthians, where envyings, divisions, and contentions rage; where quarrels, lawsuits and avarice prevail; where a crime, which even the gentiles would execrate, is openly approved; where the name of Paul, whom they ought to have honoured as a father, is petulantly assailed; where some hold the resurrection of the dead in derision, though with it the whole gospel must fall; where the gifts of God are made subservient to ambition, not to charity; where many things are done neither decently nor in order. If there the Church still remains, simply because the ministration of word and sacrament is not rejected, who will presume to deny the title of church to those to whom a tenth part of these crimes cannot be imputed? How, I ask, would those who act so morosely against present churches have acted to the Galatians, who had done all but abandon the gospel, (Gal. 1: 2,) and yet among them the same apostle found churches?

 

[fredtgreco]

Good quote Scott. Here are a few others in the same vein:

As to their charge of heresy and schism, because we preach a different doctrine, and submit not to their laws, and meet apart from them for Prayer, Baptism, the administration of the Supper, and other sacred rites, it is indeed a very serious accusation, but one which needs not a long and laboured defence. The name of heretics and schismatics is applied to those who, by dissenting from the Church, destroy its communion. This communion is held together by two chainsviz. consent in sound doctrine and brotherly charity. Hence the distinction which Augustine makes between heretics and schismatics is, that the former corrupt the purity of the faith by false dogmas, whereas the latter sometimes, even while holding the same faith, break the bond of union (August. Lib. Quæst. in Evang. Mt.). But the thing to be observed is, that this union of charity so depends on unity of faith, as to have in it its beginning, its end, in fine, its only rule. Let us therefore remember, that whenever ecclesiastical unity is commended to us, the thing required is, that while our minds consent in Christ, our wills also be united together by mutual good-will in Christ. Accordingly Paul, when he exhorts us to it, takes for his fundamental principle that there is one God, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5). Nay, when he tells us to be of one accord, of one mind, he immediately adds, Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus (Phil. 2:2, 5); intimating, that where the word of the Lord is not, it is not a union of believers, but a faction of the ungodly. Institutes, IV, ii, 5.

Still, however, even the good are sometimes affected by this inconsiderate zeal for righteousness, though we shall find that this excessive moroseness is more the result of pride and a false idea of sanctity, than genuine sanctity itself, and true zeal for it. Accordingly, those who are the most forward, and, as it were, leaders in producing revolt from the Church, have, for the most part, no other motive than to display their own superiority by despising all other men. Well and wisely, therefore, does Augustine say, Seeing that pious reason and the mode of ecclesiastical discipline ought specially to regard the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, which the Apostle enjoins us to keep, by bearing with one another (for if we keep it not, the application of medicine is not only superfluous, but pernicious, and therefore proves to be no medicine); those bad sons who, not from hatred of other mens iniquities, but zeal for their own contentions, attempt altogether to draw away, or at least to divide, weak brethren ensnared by the glare of their name, while swollen with pride, stuffed with petulance, insidiously calumnious, and turbulently seditious, use the cloak of a rigorous severity, that they may not seem devoid of the light of truth, and pervert to sacrilegious schism, and purposes of excision, those things which are enjoined in the Holy Scriptures (due regard being had to sincere love, and the unity of peace), to correct a brothers faults by the appliance of a moderate cure (August. Cont. Parmen. cap. 1). To the pious and placid his advice is, mercifully to correct what they can, and to bear patiently with what they cannot correct, in love lamenting and mourning until God either reform or correct, or at the harvest root up the tares, and scatter the chaff (Ibid. cap. 2). Let all the godly study to provide themselves with these weapons, lest, while they deem themselves strenuous and ardent defenders of righteousness, they revolt from the kingdom of heaven, which is the only kingdom of righteousness. For as God has been pleased that the communion of his Church shall be maintained in this external society, any one who, from hatred of the ungodly, violates the bond of this society, enters on a downward course, in which he incurs great danger of cutting himself off from the communion of saints. Let them reflect, that in a numerous body there are several who may escape their notice, and yet are truly righteous and innocent in the eyes of the Lord. Let them reflect, that of those who seem diseased, there are many who are far from taking pleasure or flattering themselves in their faults, and who, ever and anon aroused by a serious fear of the Lord, aspire to greater integrity. Let them reflect, that they have no right to pass judgment on a man for one act, since the holiest sometimes make the most grievous fall. Let them reflect, that in the ministry of the word and participation of the sacraments, the power to collect the Church is too great to be deprived of all its efficacy, by the fault of some ungodly men. Lastly, let them reflect, that in estimating the Church, divine is of more force than human judgment. Institutes, IV, i, 16.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

We should remember that the Church at Corinth was a true Church.

But just think, in light of it being a true church, it had many problems:

Open congregational division (the factions).
Sexual immorality problems (the man living with his father's wife).
Relationship problems (taking each other to court).
Fellowship problems (discrimination in abuse of the application of the Lord's Supper).
Personal conviction and conscience problems (the question of meat offered to idols and Christian Liberty).
Cultural problems (the hair and veil questions).
Worship problems (using the assembly for competition).

Yet, God's forbearance remained with them to correct such things, which, as we know, in 2 Corinthians, some of these things were being corrected (were corrected).

Yet, one must also be reminded that if a church does not correct its problems, God's forbearance only goes so far before He enacts temporary judgment:

Revelation 2:5, "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lamp-stand from its place, unless you repent."

God never promises that He will continue to forebear without the marks of a true Church present.

 

[Scott]

good summary Matt

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

At the same time, how many people would allow a "minister" at Corinth to come on over and preach at your church? I think Paul wanted the church cleaned up - and God too - thus 1 and 2 Corinthians.

 

[Scott]

Matt: You asked for feedback. I think the following would be helpful.

[1] Is "schism" even a viable concept in American society, given our ecclesial fragmentation? Why or why not? Reformation-era writings were produced in the context of established state churches. Those who were not part of the established state church were dissenters. The modern American condition has no state church.

[2] Can ministers in schism lawfully ordain other ministers? Why or why not? Opponents of ministerial succession commonly assume such ordinations would be void. For example, Denomination X was in schism ergo their ordinations are void (according to the argument).

[3] What happens when a minister who is not lawfully called adminsters the sacraments or preaches the Word? Are they means of grace with saving power? If not, what are they?

Thanks