Galileo Was Wrong: The Church Was Right

Discussion in 'Cults & World Religions' started by SolaGratia, Sep 23, 2010.

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  1. SolaGratia

    SolaGratia Puritan Board Junior

    Galileo Was Wrong

    Excerpt from link above:

    Galileo Was Wrong is a detailed and comprehensive treatment of the scientific evidence supporting Geocentrism, the academic belief that the Earth is immobile in the center of the universe. Garnering scientific information from physics, astrophysics, astronomy and other sciences, Galileo Was Wrong shows that the debate between Galileo and the Catholic Church was much more than a difference of opinion about the interpretation of Scripture.

    Scientific evidence available to us within the last 100 years that was not available during Galileo's confrontation shows that the Church's position on the immobility of the Earth is not only scientifically supportable, but it is the most stable model of the universe and the one which best answers all the evidence we see in the cosmos.
     
  2. JennyG

    JennyG Puritan Board Graduate

    I don't feel too comfortable agreeing with "the church".... but more to the point it also fits very well with what scripture says :)
     
  3. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Where does Scripture say unequivocally (ie: in non-poetic propositional terms) that the earth is the center?

    Yes, Galileo's findings were inaccurate and the church was right to reject them. However, given later evidence, Galileo has been shown to be right by sheer accident.
     
  4. JennyG

    JennyG Puritan Board Graduate

    Find the answer (and much, much more) here
     
  5. ericfromcowtown

    ericfromcowtown Puritan Board Sophomore

    :banghead:
     
  6. JennyG

    JennyG Puritan Board Graduate

    :banghead:
    :ditto:
    :D
     
  7. SolaGratia

    SolaGratia Puritan Board Junior

    From the link above:

    Following the rule of St. Augustine, the Catholic Church teaches that we are to interpret the Sacred Scriptures in their literal and obvious sense unless the interpretation is untenable or necessity requires otherwise. The Church also dogmatically teaches that it is not permissible to depart from the early Church Fathers’ interpretation of Scripture when they are unanimous (Councils of Trent and Vatican I). What does this have to do with cosmology? Everything, because in interpreting the plain meaning of Scripture, all of the Church Fathers believed in geocentrism (that the Earth is a motionless body in the center of the universe). Moreover, this view was endorsed by three popes in authoritative decrees which condemned Copernicanism as “heretical” and “opposed to Scripture.”
    From Quasars to Gamma-Ray Bursts, from Parallax to Red Shifts, and from Michelson-Morley to Sagnac, Drs. Sungenis and Bennett’s book Galileo Was Wrong meticulously applies the scientific mortar to the theological bricks of geocentrism, producing a compelling structure that brings Catholic teaching and modern science to a crossroads. If the Earth is really the center of the universe, then modern man must face his biggest fear – that there is a Creator who put it there, and man is subject to His rule and authority. This results in two more “frightening” consequences: Copernicanism (which was abandoned by Galileo before he died) is one of the biggest deceptions ever perpetrated upon mankind; and, modern man must retool his entire worldview by giving his primary allegiance, not to science, but to the Church, “the pinnacle and ground of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15).

    John Salza, Esquire
    Author: Masonry Unmasked
     
  8. ChristianTrader

    ChristianTrader Puritan Board Graduate

    Unequivocally, according to whom? If one looks at the history of interpretation, people did not find various passages equivocal on the subject.

    CT
     
  9. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Jenny, I can't find the argument from Scripture there. Possible phenomenological language in the one instance debated does not a case for geocentrism make.
     
  10. JennyG

    JennyG Puritan Board Graduate

    Philip, it was a very long thread, but I know the scriptural evidence and its interpretation (Joshua's long day for eg) was gone into at considerable length, especially by Armourbearer.
    The discussion raged all night long while I was in the land of nod, which is exactly where I'm about to head now! :)
    Why will these threads take off just at British bedtime??
     
  11. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    I read it. I was unconvinced. My question is how to square the masses of empirical evidence that support a non-geocentric position (stellar parallax, Post-Newtonian physics, nuclear physics, etc) are to be squared with the Scriptures. My answer is that in this case, the event is being described as it was seen by an observer. Is that really stretching the interpretation of Scripture so far? What happens when general revelation and special revelation appear to conflict? It means that our interpretation of one or the other is in need of revision.

    And yes :banghead:
     
  12. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    OOOH, my all time favorite debate :D

    Fact is- fact, you will find it in any secular high school text book, that both models work equally well to predict everything they predict ( retrograde motion, eclipses, etc).

    So the real debate is "Post-Newtonian physics" as Phillip points out.

    Michaelson- Morley and those who redid their experiments showed that as the earth supposedly hurled towards a star, and then away from it 6 months later, instead of the speed of light showing as "c" plus or minus the velocity of the earth ( think of soundwaves from an ambulance sounding higher or lower as it speeds to you and then from you, because the speed of the ambulance is added or subtracted to the velocity of the soundwave ) ......the speed of light stays constant.

    So either Einstein is correct and light speed will appear to look the same even if you are on a fast moving planet towards or away from a star, or Einstein is wrong and classical physics shows the earth is stationary ( well, almost, some geocentrists believe in some rotation that started up when a comet/asteroid hit back around Noah, iirc).

    There are too many geocentric PhD astronomers and physicists who have come out with scientific responses to all the standard rebuttals ( focault pendulum, stellar parallax, etc) that you can't just throw this out the window anymore, it is much like the ID movement. Look at just the list at the link.

    Again, unless we can go outside the solar system and look, both models work. So you really have to decide if you accept Einstein's theory of relativity or not. Plenty of real smart guys, smarter than us, do not.

    Gil...whew...I would so like to go to that. They gotta have another one in heaven for sure after we get there!!!!!!!
     
  13. toddpedlar

    toddpedlar Iron Dramatist Staff Member

    I shouldn't even begin to enter this discussion, because those who are convinced that geocentrism is correct will continue to maintain it regardless of the fact that their evidence is cherry picked, legitimate counter-evidence ignored, and the same old canards continue to be offered to prop up the idea. Lynnie put the primary evidence out there - namely that if Einstein is correct, then geocentrism is not.

    Well, Einstein's relativity IS correct and is justified/established by far, far, far more than Michelson-Morley. Other things that are claimed (retrograde motion of planets being explained, for one sore-thumb example) are quite simply NOT true. Retrograde motion of the planets requires a ridiculous arrangement of cycles, epicycles, epiepicycles, and epiepiepiepicycles to explain what we see among the planets. Other planetary systems have been discovered that obey the Newtonian laws of gravitation - the satellites of the solar system's planets also obey Newton's law of gravitation - are somehow they supposed to follow one set of laws that are very, very well established, but the Earth, with supposedly the whole universe rotating around it supposed to follow an arcane, byzantine set of ridiculous rules, with planets not actually orbiting about the earth, but about some other point in space, which point also orbits about another point in space, etc.? All this with out any real physical explanation?

    Geocentrism is simply unsupportable, and completely unnecessary from a textual-exegetical standpoint. It is no more supportable as "science" from the supposed evidence than Darwinian evolution is, to pick a particular example. In fact, it is LESS supportable than Darwin. (and Darwin is junk science, too).

    I've posted similar things before - and will not bother to enter into protracted debate. Einstein's special relativity is SO well established from everything that I do as a physicist, so far beyond any supposed "detractions" that crackpots come up with, that there is no reason to doubt it based on a mistakenly wooden reading of a few verses in Scripture. The Earth is stationary in just as real a sense as the sense in which it has four corners, and as the sense in which Christ is a rectangular piece of carved wood that hangs on hinges and opens and shuts.
     
  14. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Senior

    The statement that the Michelson-Morley experiment proved that either the ether doesn't exist or Cleveland is the center of the universe is supposed to be a joke, not a line of serious argumentation.
     
  15. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    Both are wrong. The universe revolves around the moon.

    ---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

    Oh yeah, Robert Sungenis is insane. Ever see him attempt to debate James White?
     
  16. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Only conspiracy theorists believe in geocentricity. Get with it, everyone. The Tychonian system doesn't work for anyone how can do basic math. As in basic multiplication.

    If the stars rotate around the earth, they're going up to millions of times the speed of light.

    The fact that someone set up a geocentrism institute in front of their computer doesn't give the fringe theory any credibility.
     
  17. Bern

    Bern Puritan Board Freshman

    I am divided on this issue, and have discussed it at length with a guy from my church, whom lynnie is familar with. However I think its right to say that in general only conspiracy theorists believe this stuff, and he definately is one, and has various views on the moon landings and other things, not all of which I agree with him on. The main point to keep in mind is this: from the perspective of of Gods dealing with mankind, the earth IS central to everything. Whether it is physically central in space is not as relevant. Although there are arguments that the theory of relativity has caused the "everything is relative" attitude. Don't ask me to qualify that statement! lol
     
  18. Ivan

    Ivan Pastor

    Did the full moon have any influence on this thread?
     
  19. Bern

    Bern Puritan Board Freshman

    hehehe
     
  20. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    todd...for what it is worth...

    the geo model has the earth at the center and all the other planets go around the sun, which goes around the earth.

    Not sure what ancient model you are referring to, but it isn't the modern geo one, which does work fine and easily.

    However, as we both know, it is Einstein versus Newton anyway.

    I ordered the synopsis book so I'll see how it goes.

    So Tim, the one who made the stars can't twirl them quicker than you think he can?
     
  21. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Lynnie that's not a real argument! You are positing that a continuous miracle occurs a certain distance above us. You can't have it both ways. Either the Tychonic model works according to accepted laws of physics or it doesn't. You can't say "It works up until you get to Mars but by the time you get to Jupiter the laws of physics don't apply anymore since God resurrected Lazarus".
     
  22. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    Lynnie,

    It's not that He can't, it's that He doesn't. It's quite clear that God, who has generally revealed Himself in Creation, has set things in motion and maintains them according to certain constants and rules that He wrote which are observable. You're wagging the dog with the tail by stating that He can and therefore He does. Quite the opposite. Although He can, He doesn't, and has deemed things function in a different manner.
     
  23. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    Huh? The geo model is that the universe orbits the earth every 24 hours, it is not some miracle against the laws of physics, it is a rotational model. If you look at the link they are all PhD physics guys at the conference, not conspiracy housewives.


    The speed of light is a limit for a straight line supposedly, but not for rotation.

    Zenas, yeah, there are rules. Like when something is a wave traveling at a certain speed, and you put it on a moving vehicle, you add or subtract velocities to get the speed of the wave. This was called the rules and constraints of Physics until Einstein came up with relativity, which plenty of physicists at the time and also some now reject, being as it is against all those rules you are referring to. If you want to accept Einstein, don't talk to me about rules, the stars orbiting is not more whacky than relativity is. A lot less actually.
     
  24. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    What's wacky about relativity?

    Also, what's not whacky about a star located several thousands light years away (Meaning it takes thousands of years for light to travel from there to here), orbiting the Earth every 24 hours. As Tim has pointed out, that would require those stars to orbit at a rate fast than Warp 10 on Star Trek. Keep in mind, the Earth is stationary so it's the baseline.

    1. What evidence is there that objects can travel that fast? A supposed lack of evidence on the part of my position isn't proof of yours. It has to stand on its own.

    2. Where does Scripture dictate that that's the case?

    3. Where are the four corners of the Earth?

    ---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------

    That's an appeal to authority. I've seen plenty of people with law degrees who are terrible attorneys that are routinely wrong.
     
  25. he beholds

    he beholds Puritan Board Doctor

    So, I had NO IDEA that this was still debatable! I admit to knowing nada--just dropping in to show my surprise.
    (I know, this helpful post will soon be in the runnings for being found helpful by the most amount of users.)
     
  26. JennyG

    JennyG Puritan Board Graduate

    is that a problem? Unless we ourselves are the possessors of all knowledge, most of our arguments are doomed to be ultimately appeals to authority.
     
  27. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    Zenas- far as I know some of them, maybe not all or even the majority ( I did most of my reading a dozen years ago) believe in the decay of the speed of light after the fall theory, first proposed by Barry Setterfield who was not a geocentrist back them. Bottom line of the theory is light was way faster 6000 years ago and the stars are not as far as they look but much closer. Not sure of the speed of rotation. And yeah, they have it all figured out with e=mc2 and cells and increased energy and all that jazz. And it is based on 22 measurements the past 400 years, not conjecture.

    Where is heaven? Where is Jesus in his body right now? Inside the universe or outside? When an angel comes to bring a message can it travel faster than the distance from the farthest galaxy, like billions of light years? Or is heaven not too far, like Mars or Venus? Heaven is only as far as science says we can travel? So an angel can only go the speed of light from something? Pluto is 5 hours away light speed, so where is heaven? Past pluto?

    I think the modern man centered limits on Almighty God master of the universe and creator of all are showing up here.

    There is nothing you can throw at me these astronomers and physicists haven't detailed in the books. Its like somebody throwing me a few verses with the word "all" in them and expecting me to renounce particular atonement. Sorry but I read Arthur Pink and it won't happen. Likewise with this subject, I don't have time to go reread all the discussions on the theory of relativity and why we should accept the Michaelson Morley type stuff that shows the earth at the center, and then distill a thousand pages down for you. But when I read it, the Newton seemed obvious and the Einstein false. Just my opinion and Todd will disagree.

    Who says what the limits of speed are. With quantum mechanics there are particles that are far apart seemingly interacting instantly.

    Geocentricity is interesting in that the science presumes a firmament ( very dense, in which planets and stars move, like a scuba diver in water) as opposed to empty space...it actually explains a lot of things current modern theory can not explain.

    Geocentrists also believe the sun, moon, and stars were created on day 4....really really really day four. Not day 1 and the light was visible by day 4. But created on 4. That has all kinds of implications but I am short on time right now.
     
  28. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    The general gist of it is that because God can do certain things, he does, and that means your argument is sound. I'm bowing out of this now.

    Addendum: If we're going to battle it out with appeals to doctorates, check out Todd Peddlar's CV. I seem to trust he has a grasp on physics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  29. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    These questions display an ignorance of basic metaphysics. Jesus in His body is currently outside the space-time continuum.
     
  30. CharlieJ

    CharlieJ Puritan Board Junior

    Wouldn't this mean that we could bottle space and put it in a jar? Serious question.
     
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