Free Church of Scotland and Uninspired Hymns

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MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Hugh Martin's speech in the General Assembly, 3rd June, 1872, shows how he would have addressed the subject of allowing uninspired hymns in the Free Church of Scotland.

The Psalms and Uninspired Hymns | Grace Presbyterian Church

If the Psalms are but twilight, and human hymns the sunshine of the perfect day, then walk always in the perfect light… Sing nothing but human hymns, for that is perfect sunshine; and sing no Psalms of David, for that is going back to twilight. Excuse me, however, if I think that this argument of our friends is moonshine, and the logic of it is the logic of the twilight, and suited for those only who are of weaker vision. I say the Psalms are the full noonday light of Messianic glory, and the hymns are but the twilight – likely, if you trust to them, or put them on a level with the Word of God, to prove an evening and not a morning twilight, and you know the fatal difference there.
 

LeeJUk

Puritan Board Junior
I'm sure everyone is very much aware of how many EP'ers feel. They express themselves quite strongly and freely. What you need to remember though is that it's not only the EP'ers who have an interest, who have a legitimate interpretation and honest interpretation of scripture and who want to worship Jesus in the context of that church and other churches. Allow for liberty and preserve unity on issues that are not clear such as this. It may be clear to you but it doesn't mean your infallible and right in your interpretation and everyone else is wrong.

I'm tired of this hard line nonsense coming from EP'ers I really am. Everyone once in a while someone comes out denouncing the worship of well meaning brothers and sisters in Christ who don't practice EP and all it does is foster more disunity and destroys love. Get a hold of yourselves are realise your not the only people who have an interpretation and start having talking with your brothers and sisters instead of at them. What possible other effect could you posting this address have than making EP'ers feel good about themselves and alienating a whole bunch of non EP'ers.
 

LeeJUk

Puritan Board Junior
What possible other purpose could you posting this address have than making EP'ers feel good about themselves and alienating a whole bunch of non EP'ers.
You would do well not to violate the 9th Commandment against Pastor Winzer implying that he's posting this for anything other than the intention of upholding the truth! You don't have to agree but, by all means, stop imputing wicked intentions to your brother and show some of the charity you accuse EPers of lacking, Sir!
Actually i realised i used the wrong word. I meant effect, not purpose. I did not mean to imply any ill intentions.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
We are Protestants. We not only protest against the false teaching of Rome but also against its corrupt forms of worship. Having made that stand we ourselves are responsible to provide a divine warrant for our own forms of worship. The Protestant churches are in a very sad state indeed if it has become ecclesiastically incorrect to argue the merits of one form of worship over another.

It is worth pointing out that to question the form of worship in no way impugns what another offers to God by faith in Jesus Christ; quite the contrary, it supposes that one has such a heart of devotion to his heavenly Father that he will be vitally concerned to know how God's name is hallowed in the very form of worship which is offered to Him.
 

LeeJUk

Puritan Board Junior
Theres a very big difference between something that is blatantly unbiblical such as RC'ism and something that isn't as certain such as EP'ism. Can you not fathom the notion that you may be wrong and they're are other valid interpretations?
It is not incorrect to argue the merits of worship but the fact is that on this board many EP'ers are simply forcing their ideas and interpretations down peoples throats in a very forceful way and it is very offensive. Do you need to be constantly on attack against your brothers in Christ and do you not agree that there is a biblical mandate on promoting and preserving unity and charity in things that aren't clear such as this?
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Can you not fathom the notion that you may be wrong and they're are other valid interpretations?
I'm indebted to any person who takes the time to lead me away from error and direct me in the right way. I'm sure, however, that impassioned pleas to cease discussing the biblical merits of particular forms of worship cannot in any sense be regarded as the right way. I can't imagine why one Christian would ask another Christian to cease maintaining his biblical conviction simply because there are people who hold a different conviction. As the aged martyr said, " the repentance from better to worse is a change not permitted to us; but it is a noble thing to change from untowardness to righteousness."
 

LeeJUk

Puritan Board Junior
It's not an issue of you giving up anything its an issue of EP'ers being wise in their posting on this forum when theres plenty of other people here who are non-ep.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
It's not an issue of you giving up anything its an issue of EP'ers being wise in their posting on this forum when theres plenty of other people here who are non-ep.
Sir, the forum is called "A capella Exclusive Psalmody."

I've reasoned with you both as a Protestant and as a Christian, but you have refuses to listen. So now, as a moderator, I call on you to desist telling others what they should not discuss on this board.
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
[MODERATOR HAT ON]
Lee,

I am completely unconvinced of EP. I also have not posted in this thread previously. I disagree with Rev. Winzer's conclusions.

However, you have been rude to him, and have assumed (with bad results) to yourself the role of moderator. Rev. Winzer is perfectly within his rights to post what he did in this forum/thread. I would suggest that you apologize, and cease from such actions in the future.

[MODERATOR OFF]
 

Wannabee

Obi Wan Kenobi
Well said Fred.

Lee, there was a very charitable discussion on this not too long ago. In fact, we never finished it and are still taking a break. :) Perhaps simply reading that thread on this topic and concluding that men who love Christ dearly disagree on this, and many other subjects.

Even as a non EPer, I found Martin's quote thought provoking.
 

Hippo

Puritan Board Junior
I remember reading a book concerning the history of the Belgic confession where in the towns of Belgium the saints just gathered in the streets and sang Psalms which was enough to alert the authorities to the presence of dangerous fantaics and lead to the maryrdom of many.

I do not see the EP questions as beyond theological discussion (indeed I do not think that the theological argument in isolation from the benefits of the practice when viewed through a calvinist lens are overpowering) but the reasons for this change are not largely the result of theological discussion, rather they are the result of a desire to "modernise". Modernisation is no bad thing in so far as being archaic is of itself nothing to cling to but we are not talking about a method of lighting or clinging to archaic language here, we are talking about ensuring that Worship is centered on the word of God and that it is the word not the senses that are at the centre of worship.

It is not a question of "like" or "prefer" but showing by example in worship of our relation to God, the centrality of his revelation and an acknowedgement of human frailty.

It is a very real problem of what next?

You can make an argument that we should loosen subscription to the westminster confession using exactly the same arguments as were used to allow for the singing of non inspired material, there is little exposition of why being a Christian means that you should be Reformed in the Free Church and as time goes by this position is not obvious to many, it may only be a matter of time before this is now questioned.
 

alhembd

Puritan Board Freshman
Hugh Martin's speech in the General Assembly, 3rd June, 1872, shows how he would have addressed the subject of allowing uninspired hymns in the Free Church of Scotland.

The Psalms and Uninspired Hymns | Grace Presbyterian Church

If the Psalms are but twilight, and human hymns the sunshine of the perfect day, then walk always in the perfect light… Sing nothing but human hymns, for that is perfect sunshine; and sing no Psalms of David, for that is going back to twilight. Excuse me, however, if I think that this argument of our friends is moonshine, and the logic of it is the logic of the twilight, and suited for those only who are of weaker vision. I say the Psalms are the full noonday light of Messianic glory, and the hymns are but the twilight – likely, if you trust to them, or put them on a level with the Word of God, to prove an evening and not a morning twilight, and you know the fatal difference there.
Citation, please. I've been looking for that 'moonshine' quote for years.

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------

Hugh Martin's speech in the General Assembly, 3rd June, 1872, shows how he would have addressed the subject of allowing uninspired hymns in the Free Church of Scotland.

The Psalms and Uninspired Hymns | Grace Presbyterian Church

If the Psalms are but twilight, and human hymns the sunshine of the perfect day, then walk always in the perfect light… Sing nothing but human hymns, for that is perfect sunshine; and sing no Psalms of David, for that is going back to twilight. Excuse me, however, if I think that this argument of our friends is moonshine, and the logic of it is the logic of the twilight, and suited for those only who are of weaker vision. I say the Psalms are the full noonday light of Messianic glory, and the hymns are but the twilight – likely, if you trust to them, or put them on a level with the Word of God, to prove an evening and not a morning twilight, and you know the fatal difference there.
Reverend Winzer,

My apologies! I failed to click your link. I see the quote now at the Grace Presbyterian website. Thank you so much for providing this.
 

LeeJUk

Puritan Board Junior
Firstly I do apologise for any rudeness in my postings towards Rev. Winzer. I was a bit irate.

Secondly I was not trying to play the role of moderator and say things on EP should not get posted but its the way in which they are often written without any room for unity.

In fact one example above just appeared which is exactly what I'm talking about posted by Hippo:

- We Non EP'ers aren't doing this for biblical reasons but mainly so we can be modern/relevant to culture
- That giving up the Psalms only position will most likely lead to bad theology and giving up of standards

I've seen people write very similar things over the last few weeks and that is the issue. Its condescending and quite frankly offensive.
 
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Hippo

Puritan Board Junior
In fact one example above just appeared which is exactly what I'm talking about posted by Hippo:

- We Non EP'ers aren't doing this for biblical reasons but mainly so we can be modern/relevant to culture
- That giving up the Psalms only position will most likely lead to bad theology and giving up of standards

I've seen people write very similar things over the last few weeks and that is the issue. Its condescending and quite frankly offensive.
You really should not personalise this, you are quite free to take offence at anything you want to but a Church departing from its historic standards rarely ends well, the evidence for this is overwhelming. To label such an arguement as offensive and condescending leads me to suggest that you read some of your history books.

Being a Free Church member I do feel that I can comment on this subject, a standing that you do not share.
 
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