....for all shall know Me...

[non dignus]

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "

Jeremiah was warning the prophets and the priests (the least to the greatest) not to preach the word of Baal instead of the word of the Lord. The commandment to stone false prophets or anyone who would lead into idolatry, saying 'come let us follow other gods,' was not being obeyed.

There was no discipline.

But the new covenant is better because it incorporates church discipline. (Yes, "batteries" are included. We are given the Holy Spirit. We have the law, not on stone, but on renewed hearts.) But the point is that the third mark of the church, discipline, is now included. Whereas enforcement of discipline had all but disappeared in the old', we fence the table in the new'.

We do not stone, we excommunicate.

The reason that today 'none shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying 'Know the Lord'' is because no unbeliever is allowed to the table. The elders exclude idolaters. Everyone who is a member in good standing knows the Lord by human standards of knowledge. It is a knowledge of charity.

"They shall all know Me" because the new covenant is not an all-inclusive civil covenant wherein everyone in the city is a member. In the Old Covenant my neighbor was a member. My aunts and uncles were all members. If one was a citizen of Judah one was a member of the covenant. The faithful were surrounded by faithless covenant members who did not show fruits of repentance. Most covenant members were in fact following the Baals.

Now 'the secret things belong to the Lord, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children." The elders don't have to know who is elect and who is not. They enforce discipline according to faith and practice, not according to secret knowledge only the Lord possesses.

Today, church membership assumes saved status. It does not assume unmistakable knowledge of election. "All shall know Me from the least to the greatest" are Christians of true churches who are communicated the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ.

"All shall know Me" because those who don't know Me are excommunicated.

 

[MW]

As expounded in Hebrews 8-10, it is knowledge without Levitical mediation which is in view. All within covenant will have immediate access to God without having to go through the old covenant priesthood.

 

[au5t1n]

Most covenant members were in fact following the Baals.

It seems like an unequal comparison to compare a sound church under the New Testament in which discipline is properly functioning with the OT church at a time when cutting off of idolaters as required by the Law was not being exercised. In order for the comparison to be valid, you'd need to compare the OT church at a time when Baal worshippers were executed with an NT church in which obstinate heretics are excommunicated, or else compare an OT church with Baal worshippers with an NT church that embraces idolatry and heresy (Rome, the PCUSA, the ELCA, etc.). Having done this, it should become clear that whether the church puts out those in open rebellion against God is not a point of difference between the church of the Old and New Testament administrations of the Covenant of Grace.

Note that I'm agreeing that execution was equivalent to excommunication as far as the church is concerned, but I am not necessarily conceding that it served no other purpose (e.g., good order in a commonwealth).

 

[non dignus]

As expounded in Hebrews 8-10, it is knowledge without Levitical mediation which is in view. All within covenant will have immediate access to God without having to go through the old covenant priesthood.

Hello again, Pastor!

I don't disagree with you. But the knowledge we have in the new covenant is being juxtaposed to the unbelief that was common in Jeremiah's day, according to Jeremiah's indictment. Is that right? If so, the Levitical mediation, while adequate was not being held to. I think one could know the Lord in the old system by faith. Fault was found in the people, not the covenant.

Am I missing something? Thanks.

 

[non dignus]

Most covenant members were in fact following the Baals.

It seems like an unequal comparison to compare a sound church under the New Testament in which discipline is properly functioning with the OT church at a time when cutting off of idolaters as required by the Law was not being exercised. In order for the comparison to be valid, you'd need to compare the OT church at a time when Baal worshippers were executed with an NT church in which obstinate heretics are excommunicated, or else compare an OT church with Baal worshippers with an NT church that embraces idolatry and heresy (Rome, the PCUSA, the ELCA, etc.). Having done this, it should become clear that whether the church puts out those in open rebellion against God is not a point of difference between the church of the Old and New Testament administrations of the Covenant of Grace.

Note that I'm agreeing that execution was equivalent to excommunication as far as the church is concerned, but I am not necessarily conceding that it served no other purpose (e.g., good order in a commonwealth).

But will you allow that 'all shall know Me from the least to the greatest' is right now, and is not speaking only of the elect as covenant members. "All shall know Me" because members in good standing shall show fruits of regeneration. But discerning fruit is not always accurate. There are wolves among the sheep, but they look like sheep.

My main thrust was not in an equal comparison but in the different natures of the two covenants. The first one was local, public, and "Jewish."
The second is global, private, and universal. This difference accounts for why I won't say to my neighbor, "know the Lord" because he is not automatically in the covenant. Back then, all citizens were members.

The confusion lies, I think, in that we contextualize "Know the Lord" into our own world as evangelism. No. Back then, it was a plea against the current Baal apostasy, not an evangelism technique. Back then it was assumed 'my neighbor' at least knew about the Lord. His blood was upon his own head.

We rarely hear of proselytizing in the OT. We rarely hear of stoning . But they were commanded.
The fault with the covenant lay in the people's hearts.

 

[MW]

I don't disagree with you. But the knowledge we have in the new covenant is being juxtaposed to the unbelief that was common in Jeremiah's day, according to Jeremiah's indictment. Is that right? If so, the Levitical mediation, while adequate was not being held to. I think one could know the Lord in the old system by faith. Fault was found in the people, not the covenant.

The point is not whether people could "know the Lord" but HOW they could know Him. Here the context shows that it was a knowing by teaching and such a teaching as assumed a superiority over another. It is not "knowing God" that shall be different in the new covenant, but the fact that an inferior will not be dependent on the mediation of a superior in order to know God. This will come about through God forgiving sin immediately so as to make no more remembrance of sin. As Hebrews teaches, it was the sacrificial system which made a regular remembrance of sin, and it was the priesthood which mediated in this system of things. In the new covenant this external administration is taken away. The substance and the internal benefits of the covenant of grace remain unchanged.

 

[non dignus]

The point is not whether people could "know the Lord" but HOW they could know Him. Here the context shows that it was a knowing by teaching and such a teaching as assumed a superiority over another. It is not "knowing God" that shall be different in the new covenant, but the fact that an inferior will not be dependent on the mediation of a superior in order to know God. This will come about through God forgiving sin immediately so as to make no more remembrance of sin. As Hebrews teaches, it was the sacrificial system which made a regular remembrance of sin, and it was the priesthood which mediated in this system of things. In the new covenant this external administration is taken away. The substance and the internal benefits of the covenant of grace remain unchanged.

Yes, thank you. I hadn't seen the 'immediacy', (in the classical sense) as much as you emphasize. The new covenant is reductionistic, taking away the ceremonial furniture and legal minutia.
But how does this prophecy fit in with the then current problem of Baal worship? Wasn't Jeremiah addressing the widespread apostasy of the prophets and priests?
I guess the main thing is the heart is changed in the new covenant. We can only know Him because the HOW is facilitated by the Holy Spirit?

"But they shall ALL know me.." That's quantity, not quality. Am I tracking with you? Thanks.

 

[non dignus]

"But they shall ALL know me.." That's quantity, not quality. Am I tracking with you? Thanks.

Evidently not!

There are many differences between the old and the new. Chiefly, I'm seeing now the big difference is that the Holy Spirit is given to us in greater measure than in the old'.
"All shall prophesy...." at least in the new testament sense.

But against the Baptists I wish to reiterate my point that all (quantity) shall know Him (charitably speaking),
because those who obviously don't know Him will be excluded, given the non-civil aspect of the new covenant.

My main thrust is that the third mark, discipline, is vital to the true church, and is enforced by Christ leading His church by the Holy Spirit.

PS. OK, now I see the inclusion ending at Heb 10:16! But I still stand by my assertion.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I can't answer for Reverend Winzer David but as I understand it, it is both because there were certain people who weren't allowed to approach the temple or learn the same way. The doctrine of the priesthood of the believer becomes very significant here in my estimation. We all have access the same way to God now without Levitical prodding or the need for their mediation.

This is a partial note concerning the New Covenant Sabbath I will borrow from Rich Barcellos. He would interpret the passage the way you are doing it now but I wouldn't necessarily do that.

(Is. 56:3-5)
Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, ―The LORD has utterly separated me from His people; nor let the eunuch say, ―Here I am, a dry tree. For thus says the LORD: ―To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant, even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

The Old Covenant placed restrictions on eunuchs. Deuteronomy 23:1 says, ―He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD. Isaiah is prophesying about a day in redemptive history when those restrictions will no longer apply.

Maybe that is also something that Jeremiah is telling us when he notes from the least to the greatest. It also can signify those who were considered unclean and the foreigner who has been joined to the Covenant.

 

[fralo4truth]

It is not "knowing God" that shall be different in the new covenant, but the fact that an inferior will not be dependent on the mediation of a superior in order to know God.

I know that this passage is not to lay aside the necessity for gospel preaching, yet I know of some who take it this way. What is the best way to respond to those who would say that knowing God doesn't depend upon (to borrow your language) the "mediation" of a minister, but that God reveals the knowledge of himself directly to the sinner? I used to be affiliated with the Hardshells, some of whom feel that this text actually instructs them to NOT preach the gospel to the unregenerate.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

But against the Baptists I wish to reiterate my point that all (quantity) shall know Him (charitably speaking),
because those who obviously don't know Him will be excluded, given the non-civil aspect of the new covenant.

There is an attachment that I would also add here. It seems in light of the Hebrews passage that this isn't necessarily a quantity or quality matter since the passage is an admonishment to remain faithful to the Covenant that these people were in. What are you seeing David?

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised);
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[MW]

"But they shall ALL know me.." That's quantity, not quality. Am I tracking with you? Thanks.

Evidently not!

Sorry for failing to respond; nothing was intended by it.

The word "all" is very important, but who are they? We must take into account what follows: "least to greatest." This qualifier shows that the persons knowing shall no longer be bound to the sacral system which imposed superiority and inferiority on the worshippers of God. This affects the way the things are known. Previously the priest taught the people. Now what is known is not dependent on a sacred mediator performing repeated services on a brother's behalf. As Hebrews explains, reconciliation is accomplished once for all by our great high priest's sacrifice presented in the very presence of God in heaven. The new covenant reveals the reality whereas the old covenant concealed the reality under typical forms.

 

[non dignus]

I can't answer for Reverend Winzer David but as I understand it, it is both because there were certain people who weren't allowed to approach the temple or learn the same way. The doctrine of the priesthood of the believer becomes very significant here in my estimation. We all have access the same way to God now without Levitical prodding or the need for their mediation.

This is a partial note concerning the New Covenant Sabbath I will borrow from Rich Barcellos. He would interpret the passage the way you are doing it now but I wouldn't necessarily do that.

(Is. 56:3-5)
Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, ―The LORD has utterly separated me from His people; nor let the eunuch say, ―Here I am, a dry tree. For thus says the LORD: ―To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant, even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

The Old Covenant placed restrictions on eunuchs. Deuteronomy 23:1 says, ―He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD. Isaiah is prophesying about a day in redemptive history when those restrictions will no longer apply.

Maybe that is also something that Jeremiah is telling us when he notes from the least to the greatest. It also can signify those who were considered unclean and the foreigner who has been joined to the Covenant.

Thank you Randy! I never saw that before! Yes, it makes perfect sense from the perspective of how to approach the Holy God. OK
As a new covenant believer, I take these things for granted!

 

[non dignus]

But against the Baptists I wish to reiterate my point that all (quantity) shall know Him (charitably speaking),
because those who obviously don't know Him will be excluded, given the non-civil aspect of the new covenant.

There is an attachment that I would also add here. It seems in light of the Hebrews passage that this isn't necessarily a quantity or quality matter since the passage is an admonishment to remain faithful to the Covenant that these people were in. What are you seeing David?

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised);
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

OK I'm seeing it. The high priest was washed with water before entering the Holy of Holies once a year. We are now elevated to the position akin to High priest. It's the priesthood of all believers. Like Rev. Winzer said, 'no inferiors or superiors...'

 

[non dignus]

"But they shall ALL know me.." That's quantity, not quality. Am I tracking with you? Thanks.

Evidently not!

Sorry for failing to respond; nothing was intended by it.

The word "all" is very important, but who are they? We must take into account what follows: "least to greatest." This qualifier shows that the persons knowing shall no longer be bound to the sacral system which imposed superiority and inferiority on the worshippers of God. This affects the way the things are known. Previously the priest taught the people. Now what is known is not dependent on a sacred mediator performing repeated services on a brother's behalf. As Hebrews explains, reconciliation is accomplished once for all by our great high priest's sacrifice presented in the very presence of God in heaven. The new covenant reveals the reality whereas the old covenant concealed the reality under typical forms.

That's OK, I hope I didn't sound persnickety.
I bolded the phrase that illumined me. Thanks. I really am getting a better understanding on this. I am in your debt.
Do you see another aspect of this prophecy relating to the Baal worship that so much of Jeremiah is addressing though?
Maybe it has to do with being empowered by the Holy Spirit without whom we would all succumb to idolatry.

 

[Peairtach]

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "

Jeremiah was warning the prophets and the priests (the least to the greatest) not to preach the word of Baal instead of the word of the Lord. The commandment to stone false prophets or anyone who would lead into idolatry, saying 'come let us follow other gods,' was not being obeyed.

There was no discipline.

But the new covenant is better because it incorporates church discipline. (Yes, "batteries" are included. We are given the Holy Spirit. We have the law, not on stone, but on renewed hearts.) But the point is that the third mark of the church, discipline, is now included. Whereas enforcement of discipline had all but disappeared in the old', we fence the table in the new'.

We do not stone, we excommunicate.

The reason that today 'none shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying 'Know the Lord'' is because no unbeliever is allowed to the table. The elders exclude idolaters. Everyone who is a member in good standing knows the Lord by human standards of knowledge. It is a knowledge of charity.

"They shall all know Me" because the new covenant is not an all-inclusive civil covenant wherein everyone in the city is a member. In the Old Covenant my neighbor was a member. My aunts and uncles were all members. If one was a citizen of Judah one was a member of the covenant. The faithful were surrounded by faithless covenant members who did not show fruits of repentance. Most covenant members were in fact following the Baals.

Now 'the secret things belong to the Lord, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children." The elders don't have to know who is elect and who is not. They enforce discipline according to faith and practice, not according to secret knowledge only the Lord possesses.

Today, church membership assumes saved status. It does not assume unmistakable knowledge of election. "All shall know Me from the least to the greatest" are Christians of true churches who are communicated the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ.

"All shall know Me" because those who don't know Me are excommunicated.

The death penalty, where it happened -and it was probably intended to happen less frequently than we might think - because of various safeguards and alternatives, was an extreme form of excommunication in O.T. Israel. Sometimes God Himself promised to be involved in excommuincation and there were also lesser, less final, forms of excommunication.

If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him. (Numbers 15:27-31, ESV)

Both prophetic and priestly mediation is indicated as being done away with through a more general effusion of the Spirit - and no doubt also, very importantly, greater revelation by the Spirit - in the NT?

E.g., there is initimation in Numbers 11, that God's Spirit would be more generally distributed at some point in the Church's future:

Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, “My lord Moses, stop them.” But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord’s people were prophets, that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!” And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp. (Num 11:26-30)

E.g.

“And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit. (Joel 2:28-29)

E.g.

“On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness. And on that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more. And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness. And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.

On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive, but he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a worker of the soil, for a man sold me in my youth.’a And if one asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your back?’ he will say, ‘The wounds I received in the house of my friends.’ (Zech 13:1-6)

E.g.

What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written,
“‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’
Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.(Matt 11:11)

David

But the new covenant is better because it incorporates church discipline.

But surprise, surprise, David, as I'm sure you know, there can be poor or non-existent discipline and church sanctions (or sometimes excessive use of sanctions) in the NT era, as there often was in the Old.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

OK I'm seeing it. The high priest was washed with water before entering the Holy of Holies once a year. We are now elevated to the position akin to High priest. It's the priesthood of all believers. Like Rev. Winzer said, 'no inferiors or superiors...'

I think I would rephrase that differently but I believe you are seeing what I am trying to acknowledge. We all who are alive have equal open access to the Holy of Holies through Christ our High Priest who is the Better Priest. It is from type to anti-type and the access has changed as well as the one who has atoned. Where they had to do it yearly and there were limitations on who what when and where, God has torn down the partition (the wall of separation) and given free access to every man who comes to Him through Christ our perfect Propitiation. We can all, as sinful men, come to God and are seated in the Heavenlies in Christ. The Second Adam is our High Priest who gives access to the Elect born in the First Adam. There is no longer anyone in the first Adam who is superior or a Priest on behalf of the fallen.

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. ...

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised);
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

As they say...."All ground at the foot of the cross is level." We are all dead in sins and trespasses.

 

[non dignus]

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "

Jeremiah was warning the prophets and the priests (the least to the greatest) not to preach the word of Baal instead of the word of the Lord. The commandment to stone false prophets or anyone who would lead into idolatry, saying 'come let us follow other gods,' was not being obeyed.

There was no discipline.

But the new covenant is better because it incorporates church discipline. (Yes, "batteries" are included. We are given the Holy Spirit. We have the law, not on stone, but on renewed hearts.) But the point is that the third mark of the church, discipline, is now included. Whereas enforcement of discipline had all but disappeared in the old', we fence the table in the new'.

We do not stone, we excommunicate.

The reason that today 'none shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying 'Know the Lord'' is because no unbeliever is allowed to the table. The elders exclude idolaters. Everyone who is a member in good standing knows the Lord by human standards of knowledge. It is a knowledge of charity.

"They shall all know Me" because the new covenant is not an all-inclusive civil covenant wherein everyone in the city is a member. In the Old Covenant my neighbor was a member. My aunts and uncles were all members. If one was a citizen of Judah one was a member of the covenant. The faithful were surrounded by faithless covenant members who did not show fruits of repentance. Most covenant members were in fact following the Baals.

Now 'the secret things belong to the Lord, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children." The elders don't have to know who is elect and who is not. They enforce discipline according to faith and practice, not according to secret knowledge only the Lord possesses.

Today, church membership assumes saved status. It does not assume unmistakable knowledge of election. "All shall know Me from the least to the greatest" are Christians of true churches who are communicated the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ.

"All shall know Me" because those who don't know Me are excommunicated.

The death penalty, where it happened -and it was probably intended to happen less frequently than we might think - because of various safeguards and alternatives, was an extreme form of excommunication in O.T. Israel. Sometimes God Himself promised to be involved in excommuincation and there were also lesser, less final, forms of excommunication.

If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him. (Numbers 15:27-31, ESV)

Both prophetic and priestly mediation is indicated as being done away with through a more general effusion of the Spirit - and no doubt also, very importantly, greater revelation by the Spirit - in the NT?

E.g., there is initimation in Numbers 11, that God's Spirit would be more generally distributed at some point in the Church's future:

Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, “My lord Moses, stop them.” But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord’s people were prophets, that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!” And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp. (Num 11:26-30)

E.g.

“And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit. (Joel 2:28-29)

E.g.

“On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness. And on that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more. And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness. And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.

On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive, but he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a worker of the soil, for a man sold me in my youth.’a And if one asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your back?’ he will say, ‘The wounds I received in the house of my friends.’ (Zech 13:1-6)

E.g.

What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written,
“‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’
Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.(Matt 11:11)

David

But the new covenant is better because it incorporates church discipline.

But surprise, surprise, David, as I'm sure you know, there can be poor or non-existent discipline and church sanctions (or sometimes excessive use of sanctions) in the NT era, as there often was in the Old.

Thank you, Richard
This is a gold mine of OT Holy Spirit stuff. I heard it asked of a very learned man, "How was the Holy Spirit active in filling men different in the OT vs. the NT? He said, "Good question."
"Cut off" seems to be used for something worse than physical death. We don't hear narratives very much of people actually being stoned. The account of Stephen is uncharacteristic of old and new testaments.

But surprise, surprise, David, as I'm sure you know, there can be poor or non-existent discipline and church sanctions (or sometimes excessive use of sanctions) in the NT era, as there often was in the Old.

Yes, indeed. As an aside, when the perfect covenant of redemption comes into time and space it becomes subject to the fall. We as fallen men administer the covenant of grace as best we can. Good point.

 

[non dignus]

As they say...."All ground at the foot of the cross is level." We are all dead in sins and trespasses.

Amen. What do you think about Jeremiah addressing Baal worship among the prophets and priests? And, are they to be equated with "the least to the greatest?"
A secondary use of 'least to greatest' is that prophets were scorned (least) and priests were exalted (greatest). I heard a great sermon where he fit in the Baal worship.

 

[MW]

Do you see another aspect of this prophecy relating to the Baal worship that so much of Jeremiah is addressing though?

I can't see that in the immediate context, but in the broader context of priests leading the people astray after false gods it certainly appears to have some relevance.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I agree with Reverend Winzer.

 

[Peairtach]

When you look more closely at the expression "cut off" or "karath" it is an intimation of eternal lostness, but in God's grace the thing that intimates eternal lostness doesn't always lead to it, but may save someone from it.

The same applies to excommunication in the NT.

For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. (I Corinthians 5:3-5)

There were, at least, three ways of karath in the OT, none of which meant that the individual necessarily , ended up in a lost eternity.

(a) Sometimes they would be denied the Passover and other privileges of the Church and would be shunned by the community, or sent into exile, until they repented.

(b) Sometimes God would intervene by some fatal illness or bringing on childlessness.

(c) Sometimes the death penalty would be imposed for presumptuous breaches of the Ten Commandments, although this could sometimes have a symbolical value in that a ransom could be imposed in lieu pf the death sentence.

I'll provide some texts, later.

 

[Peairtach]

We as fallen men administer the covenant of grace as best we can.

We often don't administer it as well as fallen men with grace could do.

 

[Peairtach]

Peairtach

I'll provide some texts, later.

I'll get back on this later with various OT texts showing how excommunication worked - or was meant to work - in the OT.

It would be good if someone with the language and exegetical skills of a Rev. Winzer or a Rev. Buchanan - or someone else like that - would write a monograph or essay on "cutting-off" (karath) as we have it in the Old Testament Scriptures, and on any possible implications for the administration of the New Testament Church.

It would help us move further beyond theonomy and R2K.