Federal Vision Spreading To Baptists? James White & Andrew Sandlin

Discussion in 'Federal Vision/New Perspectives' started by psycheives, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Very concerned! Apologia has gone way too far in inviting FV's Sandlin and Sumpter

    19.6%
  2. Very concerned! Dr Clark was right to warn us the first time but sadly Apologia still didn't stop!

    13.0%
  3. Concerned but I want to give Apologia time to show their true colors and intentions

    21.7%
  4. Concerned but I'll wait to hear from Apologia to see how they justify it or explain it away

    6.5%
  5. Not concerned

    43.5%
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  1. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    In the mid to late 90's it had already creeped in by N. T. Wright's writings. Wright's teachings were being read and creeping into the Baptist Church I was a member of. It was fueled by Conferences also. Some of it was due to their attraction to eschatology and N. T. Wright was seemingly Amil and very Kingdom oriented. Reformation and Revival Journals were endorsing some of Wright's teaching concerning Luther and Justification. Wright is a very good writer. He was being lapped up like water in front of a dehydrated dog. I grew cautious when a guy I discipled (and who was a Pastor) decidedly didn't appreciate John Owen or Thomas Goodwin on Justification any longer. He is now Pastoring in a United Church of Christ. His view of scripture went south as he followed Wright and others.
     
  2. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    What does academic respectability have to do with having no part with heresy? Tim Keller has tons of academic respectability by today’s standards. But he is no Jonathan Edwards.
     
  3. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Because what some would view as old time Bible thumping (or Calvinist quoting) when it comes to justification is sneered at in academic circles, and Baptists are already sneered at. I’m not saying it is necessarily a conscious decision. Soft pedaling what the Bible says on certain hot button social issues so that you can maintain respectability in the business world and polite society isn’t always a conscious and deliberate decision either.


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  4. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Is anyone? I just wish those like Both Wright's had no following in either Reformed or Baptist circles.
     
  5. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    “Soft pedaling what the Bible says on certain hot button social issues so that you can maintain respectability....”

    Sure it is (a conscious choice, short of willful self-deception). What is the faithfully legitimate reason for learned Christian men doing so?

    Remember that talk Paul had to have with Peter?
     
  6. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Or the Reformers when Rome threaten to kill them off for teaching heresy?
     
  7. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Oh I agree that at some point it is a conscious decision. But it probably starts with something that isn't always necessarily wrong like "Well....you have to be smart and pick your battles" or "We don't want to be like Westboro or that guy in Phoenix" or "I don't want somebody to think I'm one of those fundamentalists, we need a little nuance" or whatever before it gets to outright compromise and apostasy.
     
  8. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Agreed, as no heresy just came in full blown, as it started out usually quoting scriptures to a degree, but off in some main issues.
     
  9. Herald

    Herald Administrator Staff Member

    Likewise, you can't hold to FV and be a Baptist. The two are antithetical. That said, I agree with @BottleOfTears that giving Doug Wilson an audience will be exposing White's audience to error.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    FV denies Pauline Justification, so only Rome and Wright should like it.
     
  11. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura Puritan Board Doctor

    Woke feminism in the church, which has largely been able to successfully cast the problem as one related to patriarchy, is ensconced. I praise God for those who at least attempt to raise the alarm.

    Sane individuals know that we can work with people on causes of mutual concern without agreeing on other areas of doctrine.

    Just because Scott Clark sees boogeymen everywhere doesn’t make it so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  12. Steward

    Steward Puritan Board Freshman

    Greetings SeanPatrickCornell,

    I found Dr. James White's book on Justification by Faith to be excellent.

    Book Title: The God Who Justifies
    The Doctrine of Justification

     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    FV does not agree with his view.
     
  14. Phil D.

    Phil D. Puritan Board Junior

    Yet if we have to rely on and thus effectively promote someone as heretical and ethically repulsive as Wilson to take the lead in the culture wars, then we're in even bigger trouble than I thought. Surely we can do better. Surely we must.
     
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  15. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Graduate

    And...?
     
  16. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    How far are you going to take that? I expect that you'll find, eventually, that you'll have to draw a line somewhere.

    If Federal Visionists, because of their positions on social issues, are fine, then what about conservative Roman Catholics? JWs? Mormons? Muslims? We might share quite a few of the same positions with these. On the surface, at least. The foundations are very different however. A Christian is not merely a moralist; his morality is grounded in the Word. I think it quite obvious that he should think twice about partnering with anyone whose doctrine proves him an enemy of the gospel.
     
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  17. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    That is shown to be true, whenever we partner with Catholics on pro life, and with Muslims against gay marriages then?
     
  18. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    What is shown to be true? I don't understand your comment.
     
  19. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    We are siding with those against Jesus.
     
  20. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    That raises issues of the public sphere and what a Christian's duty is in that sphere. And if we aren't theocrats, and if the public sphere isn't the Church, then the arguments against partnering with Catholics on theology wouldn't be the same ones as partnering with them against The Deep State.
     
  21. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I think the big red flag here is that the conference was under the banner of Reformed Theology, which implies that all of the participants hold to views that are at least to some degree legitimate expressions of Reformed theology. It might have been different if it was something about culture more broadly.

    Some might argue that it is even worse than Evangelicals and Catholics Together since an evangelical is still an evangelical (whatever that is) and a Catholic is still a Catholic at the end of the day, despite the doctrinal indifference (at best) of the whole endeavor. But in this case everybody is considered to be Reformed.
     
  22. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    upload_2019-12-2_15-59-35.png
     
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    As long as not theology related, but cultural, ok to stand with them?
     
  24. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Except it isn't purely cultural. The Federal Vision view of "headship" can't be abstracted from their whole theology.
     
  25. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    I was referring if OK to stand with Catholics and Muslims against things such as abortion and gay marriages.
     
  26. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Sophomore

    No one said that it did.
     
  27. alexandermsmith

    alexandermsmith Puritan Board Sophomore

    There's no need to team up with the FV crowd in order to take a stand on social issues. White and Apologia have their own platforms. They should just use them to say what they want to say.

    This isn't the only instance in which Apologia has allowed their pro-life activism to influence their associations. I'm concerned they have elevated being pro-life to a central mark of grace in the believer and will overlook serious shortfalls in other areas of theology because so-and-so happens to be pro-life. And it's deeply ironic considering how libertarian they are in other areas of personal conduct.

    Clark doesn't help himself but he's right here and White, instead of humbly admitting his error, has done his usual and dug his heels in. They're as bad as each other.
     
  28. Rutherglen1794

    Rutherglen1794 Puritan Board Junior

    This board is just poison sometimes.
     
  29. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    What do you mean?
     
  30. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    If they think that is poison, read some of the stories on how women tried to leave the CREC and the FVers tried to stop them.
     
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