Federal Vision Spreading To Baptists? James White & Andrew Sandlin

Discussion in 'Federal Vision/New Perspectives' started by psycheives, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Very concerned! Apologia has gone way too far in inviting FV's Sandlin and Sumpter

    19.6%
  2. Very concerned! Dr Clark was right to warn us the first time but sadly Apologia still didn't stop!

    13.0%
  3. Concerned but I want to give Apologia time to show their true colors and intentions

    21.7%
  4. Concerned but I'll wait to hear from Apologia to see how they justify it or explain it away

    6.5%
  5. Not concerned

    43.5%
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  1. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    But Piper didn't fall total prey to Daniel Fuller's teaching. I did listen to Piper and Fuller on a Cassette Series discuss Calvinism. It didn't appear to be too terrible. At the same time Piper did write a book defending Justification by Faith alone to combat the NPP stuff.
     
  2. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Based on encounters with the principals on Facebook, I don't hold out a lot of hope for it. (And they have shown that they have no problem with working with Catholics and the like.) But I do hope nonetheless that it will be effective.
     
  3. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    The question isn't whether or not Baptists hold to some kind of baptismal regeneration or that they wish to practice pedocommunion.

    Basically, the idea is that the sacraments go together. A person who is baptized should come to the table, there is no warrant in the NT for non-communicant membership, and so on. This is one of the main factors that caused me to reject pedobaptism over a decade ago.

    There is a more biblicistic method in play with both typical Baptists and former Baptists who go over to the CREC or something similar compared to the process described by Rev. Buchanan with the confessions and centuries of Reformed witness and the idea that we should submit to that even if we don't fully understand it or agree with it.

    Most of the CREC men (i.e. FV and pedocommunion advocates) are former Baptists: Wilson, Booth, Strawbridge, and others who escape me at the moment. This phenomenon is so well known that it is axiomatic. (If most of your study of the baptism issue was on mode, as with your lengthy engagement with Dale's writing, and you weren't around or weren't engaged when the FV controversy burned at its hottest, perhaps you missed it.) Other than Sproul Jr, I think all of the FVish contributors to the P&R defense of paedobaptism edited by Strawbridge ca 2003 were former Baptists. These tend to be the culture war FV types. Then you have the progressive urban ministry high church types who are into pedocommunion, more of whom may be from a Presbyterian or pedobaptist background.

    But it would be interesting to see how many Presbyterian ministers are from a Baptistic background no matter what their theology is. From what I've seen, it has to be fairly high. But much of that is knowledge gleaned online from men who probably came online to discuss it in the first place as opposed to someone who didn't have some kind of ordeal over the issue, so maybe its less than I imagine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  4. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm no expert on Piper. But I do know that some were surprised (and some were disappointed) to see him opposing Wright since he hadn't been that clear on imputation before. Later I understand he revised "Future Grace" to more clearly teach that. (A while back I read the new intro online where he says that friends pointed out to him passages that seemed to contradict what he taught in his books critiquing Wright.) So I think at least some of Piper's critics thought things were good until the controversy started up all over again with his statement "Salvation is not of grace alone" or whatever it was.
     
  5. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I basically agree with this and have said something similar many times.

    I think the tendency is to want to get as big of a group as possible to make a statement, and as many big names as possible so that you can attract more attention and have a bigger platform. The bigger the group, the more tendency there is to compromise.

    To give one example of this dynamic, despite its identification with him, from what I understand, the Statement on Social Justice a while back wasn't produced by John MacArthur, it was produced by Dr. Ascol and others who then waited for MacArthur to get on board since he has a lot bigger name than they do. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.)
     
  6. Phil D.

    Phil D. Puritan Board Junior

    Nope. (Now that's being short... :smug:)

    Of course now there's Peter Leithart, who As far as I know was never Baptist. Outside the CREC there was also the never-Baptist RC Sproul, Jr., although I'm not sure of his present position. Besides, I wasn't necessarily limiting my assessment to leadership, but rather all of the people these men may persuaded and gained as a following as well. Whether this is a broader set than the statement I was responding to intended still hasn't been entirely clarified.
     
  7. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I updated my post after thinking it over again and not remembering whether or not you actually were a pedobaptist or if you were simply a member of a Presbyterian church at one time. And I elaborated on a few more things.

    If anybody said that all of the CREC or FV men are former Baptists, obviously that's an error. (I think I was told that Steve Wilkins is a former Methodist.) But it seems that a disproportionate number of them are, especially those of the CREC variety, which is really what is in view with this thread. Even if someone said "all of them" well, Calvinists agree that all doesn't always mean all, right? ;)

    Another connection is with the home school and family integrated movements which have taken inspiration from Wilson in the past. If and when some of them adopt pedobaptism, often they go with the Wilson variety, not knowing anything else or perhaps viewing typical Presbyterians as "weak" on cultural issues.
     
  8. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Hopefully his position is a repentant layman who is never to assume any position of spiritual leadership ever again. [I figure, why not throw the kitchen sink into this thread.]

    For what it's worth he did practice pedocommunion, but perhaps due to his father's influence I don't know that he ever embraced the whole package of FV theology. There is a lot of overlap, to be sure, but I don't think that one necessarily entails the other.
     
  9. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I know I might upset some of his fans here, I don't think we should be so shocked about White here. Unless it's a frontal assault on TULIP, believers baptism, or textual criticism, I don't think he really has ever had much to say on other issues that Reformed folks fight among themselves over. The proponents of the "1689 Federalism" recovery or emphasis among Reformed Baptists have asked him where he stands on it several times and to my knowledge he has deferred for years. (To me that doesn't necessarily indicate doctrinal indifference, but it does perhaps indicate a hesitation or unwillingness to get into things in that kind of detail.) He co-wrote a book with a CREC minister years ago. If memory serves, his debate with Wilson was mainly over whether or not Rome can be said to be a true church and whether or not Romish baptism is valid baptism rather than any kind of direct debate on justification.

    White is also friends with Michael L. Brown of Brownsville Revival fame, in that case also due to their shared views on cultural issues. Who has worse theology, Brown or Wilson? Is it realistic to expect White to reprobate Wilson, who is "closer" to his theology, when he embraces Brown as a Christian brother despite their manifold disagreements? (One might argue that Wilson is more dangerous than Brown precisely because he seems to be orthodox to many who would reject Brown. I lean toward agreeing with that, but nonetheless we shouldn't expect him to reject Wilson when he embraces Brown.) Or is it that he says he doesn't see anything in Wilson to get all that worked up over? If he would just say the same things in explaining his ties to Wilson as he does with his ties to Brown, he'd be better off in my opinion.

    The one I'm more surprised at is Tom Ascol, whose film is allegedly being produced with help from Apologia and/or Moscow. Maybe I shouldn't be, but I am. But he has said that Social Justice is more important to him than Calvinism, and Calvinism is just about the only reason for Founders Ministries's existence. So when something is that important and virtually no one in your denomination with any expertise will endorse what you are trying to do, what do you do?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  10. Susan777

    Susan777 Puritan Board Freshman

    Chris, I don’t know where you’re getting your information. Misty irons had nothing to do with Iron’s dismissal from the OPC. His trial concerned his doctrinal deviation from the WCF in terms of his understanding of the Law. He was not forced out by theonomists although I suppose some who sided with him would make that dubious claim.
     
  11. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    I think what he was saying was that Misty's ethics reflected Lee's theology (and disclaimer, I think Lee is a fine New Testament linguist in Greek).
     
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  12. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Some thoughts:

    a) Someone posted Wedgeworth's article on the history of FV. And just in case people are taking pictures of my posts and fwding them, I will formally say this: Steven did a good job in that history and I think he is basically right.

    b) FV is over. That's true. No one is having FV conferences anymore. Leithart's doing his Theopolis thing, which isn't connected with Wilson or Wilkins.

    c) Some younger guys who might have gone down the FV route are going down the Davenant Route instead. While Davenant might have problems, they are at least anchored in the scholastic tradition. James Jordan is not.

    d) Unfortunately, Doug Wilson is still out there. And I think he is flanking everyone and about to bring many Reformed Baptists under his umbrella.
     
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  13. Phil D.

    Phil D. Puritan Board Junior

    In what particular respect? FV? Paedocommunion? Paedobaptism? All of the above?
     
  14. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    It won't be FV because that is over with. I doubt it will be paedocommunion because the average Evangelical probably gets weirded out by that. Maybe paedobaptism. Most of Wilson's "crew" were former Baptists, so it's possible.

    I think it is simpler than that: they will become Wilsonites. The CREC is gracious unto Baptists and allows them to join.
     
  15. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    The connection with his wife's teaching [for the uninitiated, arguing for things like some kind of civil unions for same-sex couples about 15 years ago lest something worse befall society] was cited at the time in the OPC's denominational magazine, New Horizons. I didn't dream it up. They didn't say "This is the whole reason" but it was a contributing factor in the controversy even if it wasn't the issue before the court. What she was doing was seen by some as a logical outworking of his antinomian theology. Right or wrong, the controversy was also seen by some as a battle between Klineans and theonomists who were at odds in that presbytery. That may be wrong. Some may wish to argue that all of it is wrong. Be that as it may, but others saw it differently. It seems to me that the Irons case was as controversial as the Kinnaird case was, and some of the anti-FV people thought that both went the wrong way. Kinnaird was acquitted on what were perhaps technical grounds. Rather than repent and reconsider, he then went on to with argue for Federal Visionism and Shepherdism online for years afterward, with apparent impunity. (This included posting in an unofficial OPC forum filled with OPC elders.) This was another factor in my hesitation to join an OPC congregation not long after this, which I've noted elsewhere in the thread. (I eventually did so anyway, but not without some initial reluctance with all of that swirling around in the years prior to the report that came out against FV and Shepherdism.)

    From a technical standpoint, to my recollection (which may be faulty) Irons wasn't dismissed. I think it was "What you are teaching is wrong, cut it out" and he decided to leave rather than do that, much as Wilkins left the PCA. Contrary to what many think, Wilkins was never actually disciplined and his own teaching was never directly subjected to the kind of examination (denomination-wide) that Irons was since he fled the jurisdiction. Yet PCA people will say that "Federal Vision has been dealt with" apparently relying on the report and Wilkins' withdrawal.
     
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  16. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm not sure how many confessional Reformed Baptists will be brought under his umbrella, especially those of the "1689 Federalism" type since they tend to identify with WSCAL more than any other "brand" of Reformed theology. (Many of their thought leaders work there or graduated from there.) But people do change theology, so you never know.

    Who will be brought under Wilson's "umbrella" (largely in terms of some kind of spiritual kinship rather than some kind of official capacity) are Southern Baptists--many of whom are either not confessional or else hold to the confession rather loosely--who feel that they have nowhere else to turn since CRT, etc has been propagated under Al Mohler's watch. (I am using umbrella in the sense that some Baptists would have been under the "umbrella" of Sproul or Boice in the past.) Many of Mohler's proteges are "woke" and he is seen by many as being either unwilling or unable to do anything about it. MacArthur continues to have an influence, but he has his own problems, albeit somewhat less publicized than Wilson's. And MacArthur is no culture warrior and never has been. So you've got to look somewhere else if you want what you would consider to be incisive cultural commentary. A good many Calvinistic Baptists seem to view even MacArthur's brand of dispensationalism as being at least as big of a problem as Wilson's teaching on justification is.

    EDIT: If the PCA continues to tilt leftward on things like "Gay Christianity" and egalitarianism, I wonder how many in that communion may also look favorably upon Wilson? What NAPARC denomination is free of CRT, Revoice apologists, etc?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
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  17. Susan777

    Susan777 Puritan Board Freshman

    You are correct about Irons not being dismissed. He took his case to the GA and lost and then left rather than face likely dismissal for continuing to promote his (Kline’s?) ideas. Although the charges brought against him did not formally involve his wife’s activities she was certainly one of the larger elephants in the room. But I believe that his deviations from the WCF were of such magnitude that eventually he would have ended up in the same place.
     
  18. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    I have been a Baptist for years now, and only heard about this stuff on this board.
     
  19. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    That's right. You read it here first. The PuritanBoard is where it's at, man. ;)
     
  20. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    Im in the OPC, I would say to my knowledge we are, with the exception of a fringe element. Error is error. Wilson is in nowise an attractive or faithful alternative.
     
  21. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I've been out of the OPC for over 10 years, so I don't know what's really going on overall. But I don't know that 10,000 Twitter followers can be said to be "fringe." Any criticism of this man will be shouted down with cries of racism, I'm sure. https://twitter.com/mika_edmondson
     
  22. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    Every OPC member (including a pastor) I speak to wants no part of what he’s selling. How can he have time for gospel matters and shepherding his flock when he’s so political. I guess he can have his political opinions, but he’s surely walking a fine line. What are you proposing? I wouldn’t be surprised if a good portion of his followers are political disciples.
     
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Isn't what the so called Rev Wright was preaching all those years to President Obama this critical race Theology at it's logical conclusion?
     
  24. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    I’m not following you. Can you rephrase that?
     
  25. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    If I’m understanding you correctly, I would say Wright is the full realization of CRT. Not sure how it could ever find a home in our circles. I understand the black man’s experience is different and a form of segregation still existed just 30 to 40 years ago. But CRT is not Christian in the slightest. They could dislike trump, but it has nothing to do with our mutual faith.
     
  26. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    He preached whites were devil's, whites caused all evils, and that God judged USA 9 11 for evils of white persons. Seems like logical end if CR theology.
     
  27. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    Yes, and Reformed believers who embrace CRT more closely resembles and ultimately aligns with Wrights ideology over Reformed theology. That’s just the way CRT is designed. It confounds and ultimately taints everything it touches.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  28. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    It's not my place to propose anything, I suppose. I'm just pointing out that it does exist in the OPC. "It can't happen here" was a major factor in Shepherdism gaining a foothold in the OPC four decades ago. And of course that kind of mentality exists pretty much everywhere and must be guarded against.
     
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  29. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    A decade ago, I noticed that some Southern Baptists in the seminaries were fawning over N.T. Wright and were agreeing with the NPP in at least some of the areas where it differs from Reformed theology and even what might be termed traditional Protestant and Baptist teaching on justification. And these are men who some would consider to be Calvinistic or sort of identified with it at some time. One who was a doctoral student at the time and who is now a professor told me that he was a big Piper fan but was very angry about Piper's book on Wright. These types are typically less confrontational from a cultural standpoint than the Wilson type FVers are and are perhaps more interested in academic respectability. But it was evidence that Baptists aren't as immune to that kind of thing as some may have assumed simply because they reject infant baptism.
     
  30. A.Joseph

    A.Joseph Puritan Board Sophomore

    I agree. I actually think there are double minded/speaking, change-agents whose mission it is to transform, and other co-offenders whose mission it is to squash the vocal opinion of the concerned majority. I don’t do well with double-minded bs and I hate being lied to.
    I also don’t understand people in leadership positions who turn the other way when they are, in fact, special positions to ensure doctrinal preservation and bring formal charges as needed. If there is a way it can be done faithfully, distinguishing CRT from a legitimate black-white issue, I believe action should have already been taken against his public sentiments that contradict our knowledge of the human condition and unmerited grace.

    Seminary sponsored heresies, MLK50s, and Revoices, etc. do not go away on their own, nor does the damage done by such movements/events.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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