Federal Head

[D. Paul]

I've not heard this Q posed in this way. Certainly it has been raised and answered, but I cannot find an answer to it either.

Adam, in the Covenant of Works, is the Federal Head for humanity...ALL humanity. Then comes the fall by which the WHOLE of humanity is plunged into death "through one man's disobedience."

Now Christ, being the second Adam, also becomes Representative, yet NOT for the whole of humanity but only for the "elect".

Imprecise language and hasty conclusions lead from this to Universalism, of course. It seems, in this line, that Adam blew it for everybody so then Christ redeemed it for everybody.

The Q then: Why are all dead in Adam yet God has ordained that only a few will be elect in Christ? Why is it not a One-for-One reversal? Who has addressed it this way in Reformed teaching?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

 

[D. Paul]

You just HAD to do that, didn't you?

That IS the answer...but there's nothing more to address? Or Is my Q so easily answered (see above) that no one need bother...ever.

 

[D. Paul]

Adam represented all his.

Christ represents all his.

All Christ's are sons of Adam.

Not all sons of Adam are Christ's.

That would be like saying: all women are people can be translated all people are women!

God has no obligation to save anyone. Therefore, he's not obligated to save all in Adam.

Not obligated to save. Certainly thought of before I posed the Q. I like "Adam represented all his.

Christ represents all his."

I wasn't atempting to be profound (obviously) but I just wondered if there was any broad discussion. Guess for that I'll go read Romans.

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

Scott...all he did was ask a question which I'm sure everyone has wondered at some time. Not that I believe this but one COULD say that verse 9:22 is saying "what IF God desired to show His wrath...". I don't feel this passage was helpful in response to the question. He didn't ask "why have You made me like this" (to God). He asked (of us) why all are in sin because of Adam but not all are saved because of Jesus.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by BaptistCanuk

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

Scott...all he did was ask a question which I'm sure everyone has wondered at some time. Not that I believe this but one COULD say that verse 9:22 is saying "what IF God desired to show His wrath...". I don't feel this passage was helpful in response to the question. He didn't ask "why have You made me like this" (to God). He asked (of us) why all are in sin because of Adam but not all are saved because of Jesus.

I hear you. The reason I quoted that passage is because it simply and clearly expresses why God elects some and leaves the rest in sin. The elective decree easily deals with the issue. All die in Adam; Adam has no decrees to offer; he is not God, he is human. In Christ, the elct are made alive, for Gods glory. As well, the reprobate will bring God glory in that it will witness the power, might and judgment of our mighty, immutable Lord.

As far as anyone trying to redefine the passage in 9:22, they would find them self at odds with the fact that the term 'election' is indeed mentioned on more than one occasion in scripture; you can't avoid this. The term is excluding. It rejects flatly universalism. It supports the idea that God chooses a people unto Himself for His glory and leaves some to their sin and His judgment.



[Edited on 4-28-2006 by Scott Bushey]

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Thanks Scott. No, you can't avoid election in Scripture. It's all over the place.

Sometimes I get scared that I am one of those vessels of destruction. That even though I want to be saved, I may not. And then I fear that people I love may be in that position too.

Don't worry...we may disagree on some things but I totally agree that the Bible does not teach universalism.

p.s. I guess I need to follow Bob's advice and slow down. I haven't been here two weeks and already have over 150 posts.

[Edited on 4-28-2006 by BaptistCanuk]

 

[Robin]

Originally posted by BaptistCanuk

Sometimes I get scared that I am one of those vessels of destruction. That even though I want to be saved, I may not. And then I fear that people I love may be in that position too.

Brian, rest assured....if you are fearing you might not be elect; that your sins are too great, Etc., know for certain that the reprobate never, ever ask these questions, nor fear offending God. As painful as it is to agonize about the wonder and awe of God's mercy and power --- that doubt, fear and agony are "signs" one is elect.

The unregenerate are utterly thoughtless on these matters.

Continue to look at Christ; what he has said and done, for assurance and strength. If your faith is a mustard seed, it is enough...and fearing being "left behind" IS a sign of that precious seed!

He intends to mold you through these trials...focus on the Gospel - the knowledge of Christ!

Praying for you!

Robin

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Robin, thank you for your encouragment and prayers. God bless you.