Family Integrated Worship

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Trevor, "it sounds like" is the presumption. I was not permitted to colour, play, eat, or sit with older couples like the other little girls. I still loved church. Yes, my children are expected to sit with their hands in their laps. They are expected to sit in front of their schoolwork throughout the week as well. They are expected to sit, pay attention, and participate in family worship. They will be expected to sit and listen at certain times throughout life. My baby is expected to make babbling sounds right now...or nap. My 3yr old is also expected to sit. Sometimes next to me and sometimes on my lap. She pays very good attention for a 3yr old. Occassionally she looks around at the other children, but not in a manner distracting to others...not talking or fussing or anything. She does occassionally play with my hands, my ring, my fingers (opening and closing them...like a normal three year old). She however, is sitting still and has not been given special items that she will later think is her due to distract her in service.

I will state, that there are some children that are so antsy, that they might NEED the distraction of a pictorial bible story book or other such. Usually this is short term till they outgrow a certain stage. The church can bear with these parents...the child is a child and will behave so until it clicks in what proper behaviour is. Therefore grace is given. Every child is different and some take longer to learn than others. But this doesn't mean we give up and outsource the responsibility to others.


These are good thoughts. We have to recognize that children are all at different stages, just as their parents are. Children aren't going to be perfect worshippers while very young, and neither are we - take a look at Richard Steele's "A Remedy for Wandering Thoughts in Worship" if you think that your ability to pay attention in worship is "good". If you're anything like me, you'll find that there is probably as much to work on for you as there is (with obvious differences based on age difference and maturity in the faith) for the children. The difficulty is often that with the kids, evidence of their distraction is MUCH more overt.

We have to be careful to have age-appropriate expectations for our children - not to say that our expectations should match those of the world, may it never be! My four year old is quite simply not going to be held to the same standards as she will be when she becomes a young woman of 15 years. For some children this means they will need to occupy their hands with a pencil and paper or in some other quiet activity. We should also take note (as Jay noted) that our children gain a great deal from observing us in worship, and by participating as much through their quiet presence with us as anything else, and simply by hearing the word preached, even if they aren't following every nuance and argument.
 
Chris, I'm sorry you choose not to sit next to these ppl...you might be surprised. When we walk into a restaurant...say an Olive Garden (my kids love the OG)...I can read ppl's faces. The "oh, no...they have a passel of kids, there goes our nice meal" It hurts. We sit down, we eat, my children behave. As those that were there walked in get up to leave, I usually end up with 1-3 elderly ladies stop at our table on the way out the door to tell me that they were pleased with how well behaved my children were or that they hardly knew they were there. Many times, the child screaming is a family in the corner with one child that most ppl never even thought there would be a problem with.

1 child, 2 child, 6 children...doesn't matter. The training and the individual child does. The issue is PARENTS willing and doing the training, others being patient during the training (for some of these families, based on the child, according to Trevor Downs would NEVER be in service...that does not do any service to the parents or the training of their children. Yes, a parents may have to remove a child, but to bann the child or the parents altogether is wrong. A child will learn in time. Now I agree, if a family is letting a child roam from pew to pew, there is a problem. I have seen that also...in that case, someone needs to speak to the parents.

Trevor, I did like what you had to say about psychobabble...ITA! That is much of our problems in child training today.
 
Todd, excellent. My children actually help me keep my mind on the sermon more. I have an active mind that can go 10 different directions at once...even in my sleep. Knowing that I will have to speak with my hubby and children about the service later helps. Expecting my children to attempt to pay attention also helps hold me to the same standard.
 
Ditto to Todd and Colleen.

We simply train them in the way they should go.

We must be careful not to cater to our children as if they are so delicate we will destroy their future by requiring them to learn to participate (mentally and physically) in church. As Todd said, sure they will not be perfect worshipers nor will we, but we still insist on obedience and respect for the church and our attention on our Lord.

We require them to be still and pay attention in other settings and likewise and especially will so for the Assembly of God’s people.

The world likes to insist on giving the children as many choices as possible and keeping them comfortable and building up self-esteem, etc. This is the mentality we have to be mindful of. God’s way is perfect; we should be careful not too think too hard about what might happen if we insist on demanding that our children fear the Lord and obey all that He commanded.
 
Chris, I'm sorry you choose not to sit next to these ppl...you might be surprised. When we walk into a restaurant...say an Olive Garden (my kids love the OG)...I can read ppl's faces. The "oh, no...they have a passel of kids, there goes our nice meal" It hurts. We sit down, we eat, my children behave. As those that were there walked in get up to leave, I usually end up with 1-3 elderly ladies stop at our table on the way out the door to tell me that they were pleased with how well behaved my children were or that they hardly knew they were there. Many times, the child screaming is a family in the corner with one child that most ppl never even thought there would be a problem with.

1 child, 2 child, 6 children...doesn't matter. The training and the individual child does. The issue is PARENTS willing and doing the training, others being patient during the training (for some of these families, based on the child, according to Trevor Downs would NEVER be in service...that does not do any service to the parents or the training of their children. Yes, a parents may have to remove a child, but to bann the child or the parents altogether is wrong. A child will learn in time. Now I agree, if a family is letting a child roam from pew to pew, there is a problem. I have seen that also...in that case, someone needs to speak to the parents.

Trevor, I did like what you had to say about psychobabble...ITA! That is much of our problems in child training today.

Like I said, it was joking. Our church is full of wonderful families who have trained their children well. It truly has given us hope. As far as restaurants go, I'd rather sit next to a large family than smokers, and the unbehaved of all ages. Yes it isn't the number or the age but the godliness exhibited.

Probably shouldn't have joked about this. I know this is something you've had to defend on more than one occasion and it is a very serious matter. Please forgive me if I've given offense. Thank you for a great example to the watching world.
 
Chris, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I didn't take it as a slam, but I thought you were serious about avoiding large families in a restaurant.

Really, the worse are waitresses. We've had some avoid us and refuse to do their job when we've been at their table, due to the assumption that there will be alot of work and little tip for them. For the most part I try to keep the table as neat as possible and stack things for the waitresses...and those waitresses that give us the attention, treat the children like equally special guests in the restaurant, and are conversational...I tip very well. (I've been a waitress)
 
My experience with family-integrated churches is this:

Many of the families are very orderly. But many spent a lot (I mean a lot) of time during service doing family stuff and it is hard to pay attention in worship. These churches wouldn't even have a cry room, because the babies must eventually learn.

I am all for the general idea, but it often gets way overboard. At one church I went to even minor differences in how to raise kids became moral issues and parents were confronted. Another time a baby screamed for 15 minutes straight and the parents wouldn't budge but sat through the service and it was hard to concentrate. They were meeting in a church that already had a cry room with speakers in it - so they would not have missed the service at all, but only stayed in the service due to principle or peer pressure.

Other times I have went to the post-service meals and the topics were very narrow...almost like a cult of homeschooling. Minor differences in schooling or discipline did not stay minor differences. Letting your kids color became almost a sin issue.


I agree largely with every post here, but I just don't others views of permissible and bad parenting be forced on me. It seems that there a broad range of parenting styles and kid perosnalities and many of the family integrated folks try to make things overly black and white.
 
It's true that there are some groups that go overboard and are controlling rather than graceful and encouraging. However, you can't toss out the entirety, the concept, or others that practice such because of the few rotten apples. Or else you need to toss out every church and family pre-Finneyism.
 
While our church is family integrated, we are not like what you are describing (and I understand you are not lumping all of us together).

I agree with your thoughts and concerns in every respect. Churches that make all of the little details a manner of gaining the 'inner circle' are definitely NOT want I want Heritage Presbyterian Church to be about.

My experience with family-integrated churches is this:

Many of the families are very orderly. But many spent a lot (I mean a lot) of time during service doing family stuff and it is hard to pay attention in worship. These churches wouldn't even have a cry room, because the babies must eventually learn.

I am all for the general idea, but it often gets way overboard. At one church I went to even minor differences in how to raise kids became moral issues and parents were confronted. Another time a baby screamed for 15 minutes straight and the parents wouldn't budge but sat through the service and it was hard to concentrate. They were meeting in a church that already had a cry room with speakers in it - so they would not have missed the service at all, but only stayed in the service due to principle or peer pressure.

Other times I have went to the post-service meals and the topics were very narrow...almost like a cult of homeschooling. Minor differences in schooling or discipline did not stay minor differences. Letting your kids color became almost a sin issue.


I agree largely with every post here, but I just don't others views of permissible and bad parenting be forced on me. It seems that there a broad range of parenting styles and kid perosnalities and many of the family integrated folks try to make things overly black and white.
 
We don't expect ours under about two to be able to sit through the service and we don't start training them to sit there until then. We take them with us to worship. When they fuss as newborns, they are usually hungry or wanting to be rocked, so i'll take them out and feed them or walk them around until they settle. When they fuss as older babies, I take them out and sit with them in the nursery. Some of mine have started to want the nursery (because of the fun toys) around 18 months and so I stop sitting with them there and keep them on my lap or in my arms someplace where they aren't being rewarded with toys for being disruptive in the service, but where no one in the service can hear them. Not all my children are smart enough to make the connection, but we've made the choice to remove the nursery option at about 18 months. From then until about two, we just take them out if they are too squirmy. Around two we start seriously training them to sit.

They are expected to sit still in family devotions and in church. Not all at once, but our goal has been to have them able to sit, awake, through the entire service (about two hours) by the time they are three years old. So far we've managed that with the first five.

Unlike some of the other parents here, I do let the littler ones color. Here's my rationale: the children who are old enough to write take notes on the sermon and we discuss it later in the day. The younger ones want to do like the big girls do and take notes, but they can't read and write yet. So I give them a notebook and tell them to take their own notes and they color in the notebook. They want to participate in the family discussion of the sermon later, so they are encouraged, when they can write, to take their own notes. Once they are able to take notes, we disallow coloring.

And. When I say coloring, I mean drawing and pretend-writing. Sometimes I'll write the main text in big letters and they'll copy it. But mostly I leave them to themselves. They aren't allowed to draw during hymns or prayers or the Lord's Table or testimonies or baptism or anything but the sermon because it is "practice" for note-taking during the sermon. They don't get markers, crayons, coloring books, scissors, etc. Just a notebook and a pen.

that's what we do.
 
Good idea

Jenny,

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. Those are good ideas and I think they draw a balance between teaching them at the appropriate time and giving some grace when they are 18 months and younger. I think we do need to consider many factors around us in the training of our children. Thanks
 
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