Essential presupposition of covenant theology?

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Scott1

Puritanboard Commissioner
hmm, i wonder if the "know the Lord" motif is meant to be emphasized to that degree. Hebrews seems to not make that emphasis, so should we? The major point of the New Covenant is the forgiveness of sins performed by the one-time mediatorial work of Christ. You're right, the RCT argument hinges on the current for the church to teach one another to know the Lord, and because this isn't seen yet, they send the NC into the future, into heaven. The problem is that covenants are supposed to be earth and time-bound. That's why they exist - for God to condescend to us, make promises and fulfill them in time so that our faith can be strengthened. For the NC to await heaven for its completion defeats this purpose of covenants. Second, if the NC needs to await some future reality, then what are we to say about Hebrews stress that Jesus' sacrifice is a completed work?

Dennis, this may not be considering of all the previous discussion, but maybe this will help in understanding.

The old and new covenants, though administered differently, are of the same redemptive substance- by grace through faith (in Christ's righteousness alone). Always have been.

Christ was implicit in the Old Testament. He is explicit in the New Testament.

Redemption is a process. It involves a series of events- election, inner calling, regeneration, saving faith, adoption, sanctification... which ends in glorification. The elect are in various stages of this process at a given point in time.

Some are regenerated and are in the process of sanctification, yet that is not complete until they receive a glorified body at the second resurrection.

Christ does not fully put death away until after His return, and the final judgment.

There yet remains for all, the second resurrection, the resurrection of the body (to receive a glorified body) at the great judgment.

This a process, and requires holding to by faith. Though received, it is not all here yet.

There is a lot yet to come- and much of the life in the church, Christ's Body, is about focusing on this mystery, being grateful for it, and strengthening our faith toward the covenant promises.

That goes for believers- and their children, presumably being raised up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and amidst His worship and ordinances (in the covenant community).
 

Contra_Mundum

Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Staff member
If we are still awaiting New Covenant fulfillment then this implies that there's something left for the blood of Christ to accomplish.
What is glory (new heavens/earth), if not the "fulfillment" of the New Covenant? When you say
The only thing we are awaiting is the physical manifestation of these things
your words have a "gnostic" ring to them, a "neglect of the body" (Col.2:23) that basically ignores the intrinsic worth of the body and the indispensable need for the resurrection of the body. That last is so significant, it forms a portion of the Apostles' Creed. It is substantial with our blessed hope (Tit.2:13; cf. Act.23:6; 24:15; 1Pet.1:3-4).


Jesus saves us, Soul and Body; so, indeed the blood of Jesus has something left for us individually, if by that you mean the delay in our bodily transformation. It is "ours" by way of anticipation (so sure, we can speak of glorification as if it were already past, Rom.8:30), but it isn't in our hands yet--it won't be even if we go to heaven to finish waiting for it in the presence of Jesus.
The Sacrificial work of Christ is DONE.
The Applicatory work of Christ by his Spirit is NOT DONE.

We have not yet arrived in the Promised Land.
 

steadfast7

Puritan Board Junior
If we are still awaiting New Covenant fulfillment then this implies that there's something left for the blood of Christ to accomplish.
What is glory (new heavens/earth), if not the "fulfillment" of the New Covenant? When you say
The only thing we are awaiting is the physical manifestation of these things
your words have a "gnostic" ring to them, a "neglect of the body" (Col.2:23) that basically ignores the intrinsic worth of the body and the indispensable need for the resurrection of the body. That last is so significant, it forms a portion of the Apostles' Creed. It is substantial with our blessed hope (Tit.2:13; cf. Act.23:6; 24:15; 1Pet.1:3-4).

Jesus saves us, Soul and Body; so, indeed the blood of Jesus has something left for us individually, if by that you mean the delay in our bodily transformation. It is "ours" by way of anticipation (so sure, we can speak of glorification as if it were already past, Rom.8:30), but it isn't in our hands yet--it won't be even if we go to heaven to finish waiting for it in the presence of Jesus.
The Sacrificial work of Christ is DONE.
The Applicatory work of Christ by his Spirit is NOT DONE.

We have not yet arrived in the Promised Land.

Consider some of these verses from Hebrews and let's follow the logic:

11:9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews is not speaking "gnostically" - the dualistic separation of spirit and body - but objectively. He is speaking of what has once for all occurred in the heavens, from God's perspective. How would we explain away the perfect tense here? The phrase "we have not have not yet arrived in the promise land" is therefore not entirely true, although I understand what you're getting at. And the fact that the argument is wrapped up in the language of New Covenant fulfillment in Christ's blood makes this all the more significant to the discussion.

So what are we to make of "know the Lord"? Hebrews does not emphasize it, nor is there any commentary from the New Covenant perspective on this. Therefore, could it not as easily be taken as a hyperbole pointing to the idealism of the NC, as much of prophetic writings contain?
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
Jeremiah is speaking of the age when the shadows are dispelled. Your interpretation of this passage is comprehensible only on the theory that the NC is simply not a part of this world at all. With all due respect, I must reject that concept. I don't think that's even close to what Jeremiah and other OC saints anticipated, and even though they did not clearly see the dichotomized comings of Messiah, with his installation in a "far country" as Mediator coming at the end of the first, or how long he would tarry there before the consummation. They were looking ahead to a "purged" kingdom, and that purgation won't take place until heaven and earth meet!

And I believe the shadows were dispelled at the coming of the Messiah? Of course I believe that the NC is a part of this world and your accusation against my understanding is way off base. The New Covenant Church is a part of this World. So your understanding of what I am saying is skewed. The Jews were looking for things that made them also not recognize the Messiah and the fulfillment of the the Finished work of the Gospel of the Kingdom. There are promises yet to be fulfilled but I know that the language of Jeremiah has been fulfilled concerning the comparison of the two Covenants he is mentioning. Hebrews 8 is significant in proving that. One must look at the Jeremiah 31 passage in light of the Hebrews 8 passage also. And I sense there is a lack of wanting to do that. To just point out how the Jews would be seeing this passage is very insufficient because they missed the mark a few times.
 

Contra_Mundum

Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Staff member
Dennis,
Before I get to Hebrews, ref. Rom.8:30, are you glorified (past tense) right now? No; in principle you are, because "he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it at the day of Jesus Christ," Php 1:6. Are you complete now, or later?

Other texts: Rom.13:11 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed".
2Tim.4:18 "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever."
Rom.7:24 "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
2Cor.1:10 "He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again."

It's clear that some aspect of our salvation isn't yet at hand, because we are still hoping for it. "For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Rom.8:24.

Hebrews. The saints of old were waiting on Christ, and the heavenly city (which any earthly inheritance could only signify, being impermanent by nature). In Christ, everything is attained. The OT saints could not inherit before us, because Christ was not come. And now together, in Christ, we have attained it. We have, for our present consolation, a "hope set before us," (looking ahead) which hope enters "behind the veil" that still blocks our earthly vision, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, who "pioneered" the way to heaven, Heb.6:18-20.

Heb.2:10-11, in bringing many sons to glory, he is sanctifying (an ongoing work) one body. And the point of Heb.4, the writer is anxious to urge the believers to hold fast, and to enter into the heavenly rest; which he sets in the context of Christian worship. Because there is still a heaven to get to, there remains a Sabbath-keeping (v9) here below. Sunday-worship is a foretaste of heaven; we not only "rest" in Jesus' finished work in saving-faith, and constantly rest in him after a metaphorical manner; but we are actually invited to rest when summoned to his special presence weekly.

Thus, worship is the substance of Heb.12:18-29. A double-contrast is made, between Christian worship, and worship at either an earthly Jerusalem, or an earthly Sinai. Sinai was a place of fearsome glory, and a terrified people. Not only that, but the Jerusalem that is below (Gal.4:25) now corresponds to Sinai. We go no longer to Jerusalem, the Temple, and a repeat of the former glories of Sinai for worship. Instead we go to heaven, are "seated in the heavenly places" (Eph.2:6). There we are in the company not of a few names on a parchment roll, but of the whole company of the "firstborn" enrolled on the comprehensive list. There we are surrounded by ALL the saints of the past (there of spirit) and of the present (there by faith), not to mention the myriads of angels. There we delight in our Mediator, our Priest-Prophet-King, who delights in us. Worship in the church is supposed to make us exceeding dissatisfied with staying here any longer than necessary, because the foretaste can't last, and we have to depart for another week of marching in the wilderness.

All saints have been "made perfect" in Christ, the saints above being even more perfected in the sense they have been fully freed from all sin-taint (but still waiting resurrection, which is the direct implication of the fact they are spirits-only).

So, no, Hebrews isn't speaking gnostically. And neither is Paul, when he says that we have salvation, and yet are being saved, and that in hope. We're not in heaven yet, and heaven (and the resurrection) is the GOAL of our salvation, the blessed presence of God, in our body, with no sin to interfere. To say that we literally possess everything right now, this instant, denies the wholesome necessity of our own, individual resurrection to complete our salvation.

So what are we to make of "know the Lord"? Hebrews does not emphasize it, nor is there any commentary from the New Covenant perspective on this. Therefore, could it not as easily be taken as a hyperbole pointing to the idealism of the NC, as much of prophetic writings contain?
Of course, I can't help but think "word-concept-fallacy" here. The whole book of Hebrews is shot-through with warnings to the church against falling away. What is that, if not an appeal to "Know Your Lord!"?

I am deeply dissatisfied with the interpretive stance on Hebrews that understands it as written to a special, unique situation "between" the OC and NC, a "transition" book, that is literally an evangelistic appeal to uncommitted Jews to come out into the NC, and not "shrink back" into the shadows of the OC. That strikes me as a tailor-made paradigm, crafted to suit the precommitment to an overrealized eschatology. In such terms, Hebrews isn't addressed to Christian-Jews per se, and to the church (as are the rest of the NT letters) here most likely comprised of a Jewish-majority; but instead it is written to a hybrid community, not as-a-whole settled on Christ, and not fully divested of either OC participation or non-believers (which would explain the numerous warnings against falling away, and encouragements to faith in Christ who is better).

I do not share the presuppositions that support that read. Hebrews is a Christian book; it is written to a Christian, ethnically Jewish-dominant congregation; it quite possibly started out as a sermon; it is not unique, but is Apostolic preaching at its finest--it is the kind of sermon that we should hear all the time, this one possibly beginning at the text, Ps.2:7 (cf.Heb.1:5), and expositing the identity of "My Son." Christians should never tire of the gospel, it's worrisome if they do or if their shepherds neglect it by them, and they need to be warned not to fall away from Christ.

As for there being NO New Testament commentary on "know the Lord," I doubt if I can produce anything more direct than possible allusions (but the Scripture is full of such things from all over the OT). Why we must have such a thing as a direct quote and specific exposition seems like demanding a certain kind of answer, or else one won't be satisfied.

Php.3:10 "that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,"
Here is Paul, considering what knowledge he had as nothing and relatively useless (sort of like the food you ate yesterday), and desirous to actually get to know Jesus (the Lord). And is this not an exhortation to the same attitude? Of course it is, v15, "Let those of us who are mature think this way."

Heb.10:30 "For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
Here is the pastor, saying to his flock, "You, who claim to be Christians, you surely know him, then. For if you do not, then what? Then are you "of those who shrink back and are destroyed," No, but be "of those who have faith and preserve their souls" (v.39).
 

Contra_Mundum

Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Staff member
Randy,
You're my brother, and I love you. And we disagree sharply on this. And I think that you are probably closer to me in many things, because of your own journeying in paths of your R&P brethren. You've been impacted deeply by RCT, and that has led you to CBT, and I'm glad you are there, and not someplace else.

And that is why I think you (of all people) can understand the difference between what a man like me means when he says the NC partakes of this world, versus what you would mean if you choose the same terms. If you, having a Baptist mind on this point, don't think the NC is administered in this world; then the manner in which we, being in this world, partake or participate in it is discernibly different in your definition from what I mean by the words "a part of this world." I don't mean to offend.

To just point out how the Jews would be seeing this passage is very insufficient because they missed the mark a few times.
I could care less at this point how the Pharisees and their students (the bulk of the people in Jesus' earthly days) missed the mark of understanding. They were living in the final apostasy of the OC era. I specifically said "what Jeremiah and other OC saints anticipated," by which I mean the true and best Messianic expectations, some of which are told explicitly in Heb.11, and elsewhere. How should the remnant have been reading it, that is the question, and it is answered by Jesus, Jn.5:39; 3:10; Lk.24:25-27.

I agree that the passages (Jer.31 and Heb.8) are meant to shed light on each other; neither can be interpreted in a vacuum, and then brought to the other. But I think there are deeper presuppositions that you need to acknowledge. I have a presupposition that says: Heaven is the first place where I don't need to tell my brothers, "Know the Lord." Another one says: I'm not in heaven yet. A third is: I live at present in an evil age.

Conclusion: Jeremiah is referring ideally to a reality entirely beyond this present evil age.

I live with one foot in this age, and one foot in the next. I am a member, and a minister, of the New Covenant. And I teach my NC neighbors and brethren every Sunday, in obedience to the commandment,"Know the Lord."

Perhaps you are nodding in agreement this whole way through. Then we must have a different definition or meaning or relevance of that imperative, "Know the Lord." I know we disagree on the temporal significance of (when/where) they "shall know me, from the least to the greatest." As to "who," the "all" is eschatological, it is electional. But in the period between times, we cannot (infallibly) tell the difference between those in, and those out. The threshing (Ps.1:4) is still going on.
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
I agree with you and I tried to show my thoughts on what Know the Lord had implication wise in a previous post in relation to the passage and how that varies in different situations as I noted here.

And I agree with Bruce that we should weekly encourage everyone to know the Lord. But I imagine it will be of a different degree for those who are in Christ as opposed to those who are not. For those who are in Christ this knowing will be encouragement to grow closer to him and to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. But they will already know him on one level if they are in Christ. Jesus said in John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." Jesus also said that we have everlasting life and have passed from Death unto life already in John 5:24. (Joh 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. So then I would think that this level of Knowing God must be a given for those who are in the New Covenant as defined in Jeremiah 31 and that is how this is to be understood.

We agree a whole more than we disagree that is for sure.

Love ya Pastor.
 

steadfast7

Puritan Board Junior
not sure if Randy already made this argument, but re: "know the Lord" isn't it the case that even in heaven, there will be no end to the call to know him? We will never cease to know him in the Php 3:10 sense. Even the glorious angels are calling out to each other night and day naming the excellencies of his holiness, and the heavens are declaring the glory of God, their voice and speech never ceasing, as if they, and we, do not already know it? In another sense can't it also be said that those of us who are regenerate and walking in the Spirit do not need to be told to "know the Lord" for we already know him. In these last days God has spoken to us in his Son, and the Spirit is already bearing witness of our adoption? All this to say that there are many ways in which "know the Lord" can be understood, but this has not hindered the author of Hebrews; this portion of Jeremiah is not an issue for him, for he is wrapped up in the perfected realities of the rest of the promise.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
All this to say that there are many ways in which "know the Lord" can be understood, but this has not hindered the author of Hebrews; this portion of Jeremiah is not an issue for him, for he is wrapped up in the perfected realities of the rest of the promise.

Really? The author of Hebrews is wrapped up in the perfected realities of the New Covenant?

Does that fit with the flow and purpose of the Book of Hebrews?

Not at all.

The point throughout the Book of Hebrews is the exhortation of believers to not shrink back and to continue in visible fellowship and to hold fast to their Confession. The Book is replete, prior to and after this section, with the warnings of apostasy. Yet, in a fit of ADHD, the author gets wrapped up in the perfected realities of the New Covenant. This would represent a significant departure from the theme of Hebrews where the apex of Revelation, Priesthood, and Kingship of Christ are used to exhort those in the Church to persevere in the things they have been taught and that they have no place to go back to.

Futhermore, the author is wont to show that all the physical things they see are "passing away" and shadows of what Christ has inaugurated and to shrink back would be much greater condemnation to those who would fail to press forward. In other words, the entire Book of Hebrews can be seen as a "lesser to greater" argument that Christians might persevere because of the greatness of Christ by comparison to the things that heralded and shadowed Him and are "passing away". The letter's focus does not lend itself to the notion that authors' discussion on Hebrews 8 is to get the reader to reflect abstractly on the idea that, for those in the New Covenant, we no longer need a present exhortation. It certainly does not lend itself to the idea that the author is calling the reader to think to Himself: "Not to worry, I will never cease to know Him...those threats apply to someone else or they are completely theoretical...."

Bruce has his finger on the issue and has expressed it throughout.

One of the things that gelled for me a few years ago after studying the whole revelation through Seminary study, is the nature of the revelation of the Kingdom of God and New Covenant in the Old Testament and how that revelation is more complete in the NT.

In the Old Testament, the vantage point of Revelation sees a Day approaching where all will be fulfilled. For all intents and purposes, the Kingdom and the Day of the Lord look like a POINT in time where all will be fulfilled in one fell swoop. The Lord will judge and the Lord will bless.

When Christ comes on the scene, however, and His revelatory works dawn as well as the completion of Revelation by the Apostles, it becomes clear that where the OT might have given the impression that the Day of the Lord (or Kingdom of God) was a POINT, it is in fact a whole era between the announcement of Christ that the Kingdom is "upon you" and His coming again to consummate and finally defeat sin and death in Judgment.

The Day of the Lord is upon us and we live in the Last Days. Even in Hebrews, TODAY is the Day. The Kingdom is the Church militant as she fulfills the commission of the King to bring the Gospel to men and announce that Today is the day of salvation. We live with the confidence that Christ reigns but wait, in hope, for what we do not see, with the substance of knowing that all He has promised will come to pass. We have the more sure Revelation of these things through His death, resurrection, and ascension but are still called to look at the Saints of Old who had to wait on the Lord and His Promises. Hebrews 11 is meant to show how all the Saints had to wait, in faith, for what God would accomplish. We do likewise but are blessed to live with the fullness of God's revelation and the inauguration of the New Covenant that they could only see from afar. In a sense, they waited for the New Covenant when all would be fulfilled at once and, as I noted before, we live in the New Covenant where we see that Christ has come and is going to come again but it is not a single point in time but an era.

Thus, to look at Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 as completely fulfilled and inaugurated is to see the NC from an OT vantage point. Presuppositions sadly inhibit men from the fuller revelation that the NT provides about the nature of the New Covenant. The Day of the Lord, the NC, the Kingdom are not a point but an era. The Wisdom of the Age to Come has dawned upon the Wisdom of this Age.

The OT Prophets saw a single mountain in the distance but we now see that the NC is a mountain range because we have the vantage point of NT revelation. We live in the reality of being a part of the mountain range but know, as well, that the full consummation and our ultimate glorification is not a present reality but a hope.
 

steadfast7

Puritan Board Junior
There's nothing anti-Reformed Baptist, that I can think of, about warning apostates of doom, or calling potential wavering Christians to get back in line and keep faithful to the confession lest they be lost forever; and therefore there's nothing particularly paedobaptistic about it. Those who end up apostatizing would be reckoned as John did: "they went out from us because they were never with us..."

If the injunctions in Hebrews are so severe, could this not actually be evidence that the author thinks so highly of the New Covenant, it's efficacy, and it's completeness? Indeed, observe the places where the strongest warnings appear in Hebrews:

Chapter 6: 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
...
but looks what comes right after: v. 9ff, "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Again, consider, chapter 10: 37 For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”
...
but then, the flip side: 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

I agree that Hebrews is shot through with warnings, no doubt. But it's also shot through with the good news of the finished work and the full assurance that comes with it. What I see is the classic NT motif: if A, how much more B? if A for the saints of old, how much more B for us? Indeed, the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
I agree that Hebrews is shot through with warnings, no doubt. But it's also shot through with the good news of the finished work and the full assurance that comes with it. What I see is the classic NT motif: if A, how much more B? if A for the saints of old, how much more B for us? Indeed, the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

But of course. I have not said otherwise. My point, however, is that the greatness of the NC is used to awaken believers to the excellencies of it that they might persevere in it and not shrink back from it. I assume you may have either missed or forgotten where I noted earlier in the thread that there is a "lesser to greater" note throughout the letter.

The specific point I'm making is that a proper NC perspective does not create an "all at once" ideal for NC believers. We are in the NC but everything promised in the NC is not yet consummated because Christ has not yet returned. We have the full assurance that these things will come to pass given the revelation of Christ and His Perfected Prophet, Priest, and King that eclipses all that came before to shadow His advent. Even so, we wait, in hope, for what we do not see yet. Thus, Hebrews 8, when speaking of the NC and quoting Jer 31, is not intended to communicate that all that Jeremiah prophesied about the NC is a present possession. Jeremiah 31 looked "telescopically" at all that the NC would fulfill and, as I noted before, from the OT vantage-point it looked like it would happen all at once. The NT makes clear that the NC is not a point but an era. The Kingdom is among us but is not yet consummated.

When one understands this, they better understand the disciples' confusion and questions to Christ assuming that He would now fulfill everything prophesied. This even happens after the Resurrection and it is not until He sends the Spirit that they fully understand that the NC will not happen all-at-once but opens up into the Last Days.

One could say that Jews had an over-realized eschatology with respect to expectations of the Messiah's advent and the NT straightens that out. A Baptist view that idealizes the NC as "fully realized" in its treatment of Heb 8 quoting Jer 31 suffers from the same misapprehension of NT Revelation. The NT rounds out the proper understanding of the NC as Already/Not Yet. When one misses this point, it is as if they are looking at the NC with OT eyes.
 

steadfast7

Puritan Board Junior
Here's a thought:

Has Jesus completed the stipulations of the Father given in the covenant of Redemption?

I believe he has. He has gone into the Holy of Holies in heaven and has by his blood once for all perfected those are being sanctified. Jesus said he has completed all that the Father has given him to do. The only thing left is the manifestation of these realities on earth. If so, then doesn't it follow then, that the earthly covenants, which are subsumed under the overarching covenant of redemption, are thus completed? Therefore, we should be able to say that the NC is likewise complete. Or, is the NC something distinct altogether?

Without a doubt, the NC is not fully realized, there is no disagreement there, but how can we say it has not reached its completion in Christ if Christ has indeed fulfilled the covenant of redemption? Isn't it so that the CoR is the only covenant that begins and ends in heaven, a covenant among the Godhead? everything else is an earthly covenant.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Dennis,

I'm closing the thread. Your questions have been answered. I don't know how many time you can be told the difference between the hidden things of God and the revealed things and then ignore the command of the Scriptures. We don't live by things that are in eternity and in the mind of God. Historically, the New Covenant is not yet consummated. Everything necessary to secure the benefits for those to whom the graces of the NC belong has been accomplished. The once-for-all sacrifice necessary to atone for the sin of the elect has been accomplished.

Yet, as is clear, Christ has not yet come again. He comes again not to deal with sin because He dealt with that once-for-all but He will come again to receive those Whom He has purchased. His return and the consummation of all things are part of the promise of the New Covenant. It is one Covenant but it does not happen all at once nor are we called, as creatures, to think of it as having already been consummated but as those who look for, pray for, and expectantly long for His return.
 
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