Effective Biblical Discipline

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ValleyofVision

Puritan Board Freshman
Hello Again

I have been pondering this thought and speaking about it with elders & friends but wanted to get some advice from you if you have some on this situation.

My daughter, who is two 1/2 years old, has been really... how do I say this as nicely as possible?...trying us. I understand that this is a growing period for her and she's learning new things but, I have been in a way loosing my patience. I hate raising my voice to her, I do, but sometimes I find that it's the only thing that she will respond to. I also feel that I am a little irritated and grouchy already because she pretty much sleeps for about 2-4 hours a night wakes up, runs in our room (which is fine with us if she'll sleep) turn on the light and refuse to go back to sleep. So, I or my wife will bring her in her room, lay with her until she falls asleep and then she'll be up again.

Basically I want to learn how to respond rather than react. I want to always teach her WHY something is not okay not just react in a irrational angry manner. My motive in disciplining her is to be an expression of love because I care about her and love her beyond words but I don't know.. I feel quite discouraged.

My wife is also pregnant right now and put on bed rest for preeclampsia so I want to put absolutely no pressure or stress on her (which is why I'm asking others for advice).

Obviously this thread can go either way if someone agrees or disagrees with a type of discipline but I am truly and honestly seeking advice and open to hear.
 
Honestly, I'd let my child know that that's not okay, that that is a time for sleep, and that she will get a spanking if she does it again.

By the way, my oldest turns four next month, my middle child is two, and my youngest is nine months old.
 
Doesn't sound like she's getting much sleep for some reason or another. Here are some links about sleep disorders/problems in children. Some of these are easy fixes.... some might need an MD visit. I know when I'm tired I have less patience and I'm moody. If a child isn't getting the sleep they need, there's going to be trouble in the household during the day. http://seattlemamadoc.seattlechildrens.org/toddler-sleep-4-reasons-toddlers-wake-up-at-night/ and http://www.end-your-sleep-deprivation.com/sleep-disorders-in-children.html
 
Are you opposed to co-sleeping, or having her sleep in a separate bed in your room? We have two biological children and four adopted (well the last two are almost adopted). They all have had different needs as far as sleep goes.

You might also try to defuse certain essential oils that help relaxation. This has worked really well for our youngest and most difficult child (who is also two and a half, and unfortunately we are her third home).
 
Is this your first 2.5 year old?

If so, be encouraged. This season will pass with or without you. Know that others have survived and so will you. I know from my own experience that children will rise to the stress level of the parent. It is possible that the stress you have from her lack of sleep is contributing to her restlessness.

In addition, I also know from my own experience, that your stress might get in the way of enjoying one of the best times of your life. Believe it or not, there will come a day when you will wish she was 2 again.
 
I've got a busy day so I don't have much time, so I'll keep it short. This is going to sound harsh, but I believe your present discouragement is directly tied to your parenting strategy, and the only way to get you to possibly see a better future is to challenge the assumptions and basic practices of your parenting.

First, quit this "I love her so much" garbage as if loving her is an impediment to doing the hard work of disciplining her. The word of the Lord is that IF you love her THEN you will discipline her. Prove your love by engaging in the hard work of shaping a person. Parenting is warfare: you are literally waging war against the will of your daughter to determine what kind of person she will be.

Second, note that this time is crucial. IF you cannot establish that you are in charge, and that your word is to be obeyed immediately and implicitly, then you will spend the rest of your parenting years regretting it... and to make it worse, you will unleash on the world a woman who won't have learned from her earliest years that her will is subordinate to the will of legitimate authority. Things learned in the home, especially in the earliest years, set a behavioral tone for the rest of one's life.

Third, you lament that you "hate raising your voice at her" but that sometimes that's "all" she'll respond to. Of course! Duh! This is a battle of wills, and to win a battle takes the coercive use of force. Sometimes "force" takes the form of a stern tone, or a raised tone, or sometimes it means the infliction of physical pain in the form of a spanking. (And yes, spankings are needed for 2 year olds.) Sometimes, when your child is older, deprivation of privileges and sources of entertainment are the form "force" takes.

Fourth, you can't reason with a 2 year old. You think you can, because she can have basic conversations, but you can't really reason with her. And besides, she's not your peer that you should have to justify yourself. So stop wringing your hands like an impotent imp bemoaning that you want her to know "why" she should/shouldn't do something. At this age the most important thing you can teach her is that YOU ARE IN CHARGE and if you say jump then she'd better start jumping. No questions - because from a child questions are ALWAYS a segue to a debate - just obedience. As she ages, and can reason, then start explaining things.

Fifth, I know it's hard to hold a line. Sometimes giving up and giving in is far easier. But a habit of that will chart a terrible course for you... and for your daughter.

You can do it. By the grace of God, you can raise your child in such a way that she'll be respectful, obedient, hard working, personable, responsible, outgoing, friendly, appreciative, gracious, and kind. But at 2 years old... you've got to do the hard work to lay the foundation for her to develop those qualities.
 
Disciplining has its place, but I do hope you will make sure nothing is wrong with her medically (it's not normal for a two year old to sleep only 2-4 hours a day), or find out if there is something in the environment waking her, causing poor sleep, and then causing bad behavior before diving into discipline. You'll feel terrible if you started with heavyhanded discipline then find out later it was a medical or environmental issue you could have fixed.
 
That's the modern notion: FIRST rule out something medical. Please. I can't begin to count the number of kids that age who sleep just a few hours at night for a protracted season. The discipline issue is having the sheer audacity to run into the parents room, turn on their light (!), and then refuse to go back to sleep. This is a discipline issue if ever there was one. Pussyfooting around with "why won't she sleep" while ignoring these brazen acts of self-projection is a problem.
 
They don't call it 'the terrible twos' for no reason. I heard a tape of a sermon by Donald Gray Barnhouse at Hawthorne Baptist Church in N.J. I'll never forget his saying;
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15) The hoe for the garden and the hoe handle for the child, figuratively speaking. If you let your little darling express himself, you'll have the same results as if you let your garden express itself."
 
I've got to agree with Rev. Ben, although I might word things a bit differently.

I want to add that sometimes the best thing you can do for your child is let her cry/scream herself to sleep. Good sleeping patterns can be developed, but you will only get there if she learns to go to sleep on her own, and to get back to sleep on her own when she wakes up in the middle of the night.

By way of encouragement, I want to let you know that all three of my little ones sleep through the night. They all have moments when they wake up in the middle of the night. In those cases, we meet whatever small need needs to be met (drink of water, visit to the potty), and then send the child back to bed. They always go back to sleep on their own. If there's not anything wrong, we just say, "go back to sleep" (my two-year-old son recently came to the bedroom door, and I said, "Eli, what's wrong?" he sleepily said, "I don't know." I just sent him back to bed--goofy kid).

Also, diffuse something if you think it's necessary--that can be helpful in getting a good sleeping pattern going--but don't do it apart from discipline. Discipline is primary.
 
My 3 year old has always slept well and 10 month old just started sleeping well. So I don't have this problem, but my nephew did (around 2 years old).

My sister and brother-in-law ended up locking him in his room (after explaining to him that he had to stay in there to sleep until morning). Reversed the door knob on his room. He would cry and fall asleep on the floor in front of the door. Today he sleeps fine, was just a phase.

Correction is also an option and may be a better one. The problem with locking them in their room is if there's a fire or if they need to go to the bathroom. The problem with correction is if there's a legit problem they need to wake you up for.
 
Are you opposed to co-sleeping, or having her sleep in a separate bed in your room? We have two biological children and four adopted (well the last two are almost adopted). They all have had different needs as far as sleep goes.

You might also try to defuse certain essential oils that help relaxation. This has worked really well for our youngest and most difficult child (who is also two and a half, and unfortunately we are her third home).


We are not opposed to it, but we are if she won't go to sleep. Thank you so much for the essential oil suggestion.
 
Well-meaning mothers offered desperate me advice for disciplining my strong-willed boy, who doesn't respond to spanking. "First address the physical, etc. issues... Is he overtired? Overstimulated? Allergies? Certain events going on in his life, gluten..."

Just, no. For one, much uneccessary time. Two, frankly, HE NEEDS TO OBEY ME. That's the problem. I'm all for removing obstacles of temptation. But I can't sit around all day googling why he's disobedient. We all know why our children are disobedient. We're Calvinists.
 
I've got a busy day so I don't have much time, so I'll keep it short. This is going to sound harsh, but I believe your present discouragement is directly tied to your parenting strategy, and the only way to get you to possibly see a better future is to challenge the assumptions and basic practices of your parenting.

First, quit this "I love her so much" garbage as if loving her is an impediment to doing the hard work of disciplining her. The word of the Lord is that IF you love her THEN you will discipline her. Prove your love by engaging in the hard work of shaping a person. Parenting is warfare: you are literally waging war against the will of your daughter to determine what kind of person she will be.

Second, note that this time is crucial. IF you cannot establish that you are in charge, and that your word is to be obeyed immediately and implicitly, then you will spend the rest of your parenting years regretting it... and to make it worse, you will unleash on the world a woman who won't have learned from her earliest years that her will is subordinate to the will of legitimate authority. Things learned in the home, especially in the earliest years, set a behavioral tone for the rest of one's life.

Third, you lament that you "hate raising your voice at her" but that sometimes that's "all" she'll respond to. Of course! Duh! This is a battle of wills, and to win a battle takes the coercive use of force. Sometimes "force" takes the form of a stern tone, or a raised tone, or sometimes it means the infliction of physical pain in the form of a spanking. (And yes, spankings are needed for 2 year olds.) Sometimes, when your child is older, deprivation of privileges and sources of entertainment are the form "force" takes.

Fourth, you can't reason with a 2 year old. You think you can, because she can have basic conversations, but you can't really reason with her. And besides, she's not your peer that you should have to justify yourself. So stop wringing your hands like an impotent imp bemoaning that you want her to know "why" she should/shouldn't do something. At this age the most important thing you can teach her is that YOU ARE IN CHARGE and if you say jump then she'd better start jumping. No questions - because from a child questions are ALWAYS a segue to a debate - just obedience. As she ages, and can reason, then start explaining things.

Fifth, I know it's hard to hold a line. Sometimes giving up and giving in is far easier. But a habit of that will chart a terrible course for you... and for your daughter.

You can do it. By the grace of God, you can raise your child in such a way that she'll be respectful, obedient, hard working, personable, responsible, outgoing, friendly, appreciative, gracious, and kind. But at 2 years old... you've got to do the hard work to lay the foundation for her to develop those qualities.

I appreciate your response as it is truthful and definitely not sugar coated:cheers:.

One question: what is wrong with explaining WHY she shouldn't do something? Ex: if she pushed someone, would I just spank her without an explanation of why the behavior was wrong?
 
I appreciate your response as it is truthful and definitely not sugar coated:cheers:.

One question: what is wrong with explaining WHY she shouldn't do something? Ex: if she pushed someone, would I just spank her without an explanation of why the behavior was wrong?

Of course you need to say *something.* It will breed contempt if you make a habit of coming up and, without a word, start spanking.

To use your example: if your daughter pushes someone, you want to know if you should explain why the behavior is wrong. If by "explain why the behavior is wrong" you mean that you simply repeat something simple and understandable such as "Shame on you! We do NOT push other people!" then fine. But if you're seriously asking me why you "shouldn't" explain "why" the behavior is wrong, as if an explanation of the "why-ness" is needed... I'll tell you: it is a waste of time, and it undermines your implicit authority to try to rationalize with a 2 year old the ethical rationale behind why pushing other people is an inappropriate behavior...

At this point in her life the only rationale she needs is because you said so. So if YOU say that she isn't allowed to push other people, then that is all she needs to know as a 2 year old. If you say that at 2am her butt needs to be in bed - or at least quietly entertaining herself in her room (or whatever you decide is permissible) then that's all she needs to know. Remember, you're trying to lay a foundation on which you can teach her all of the lessons she'll need to know. So you start with: YOU ARE IN CHARGE. Save complex moral reasoning until later... after you have established that you are the authority in her life. Anyway, I've got other things to do this evening. Have fun raising your kid!
 
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I appreciate your response as it is truthful and definitely not sugar coated:cheers:.

One question: what is wrong with explaining WHY she shouldn't do something? Ex: if she pushed someone, would I just spank her without an explanation of why the behavior was wrong?
Of course you need to say *something.* It will breed contempt if you make a habit of coming up and, without a word, start spanking.

To use your example: if your daughter pushes someone, you want to know if you should explain why the behavior is wrong. If by "explain why the behavior is wrong" you mean that you simply repeat something simple and understandable such as "Shame on you! We do NOT push other people!" then fine. But if you're seriously asking me why you "shouldn't" explain "why" the behavior is wrong, as if an explanation of the "why-ness" is needed... I'll tell you: it is a waste of time, and it undermines your implicit authority to try to rationalize with a 2 year old the ethical rationale behind why pushing other people is an inappropriate behavior...

At this point in her life the only rationale she needs is because you said so. So if YOU say that she isn't allowed to push other people, then that is all she needs to know as a 2 year old. Remember, you're trying to lay a foundation on which you can teach her all of the lessons she'll need to know. So you start with: YOU ARE IN CHARGE. Save complex moral reasoning until later... after you have established that you are the authority in her life. Anyway, I've got other things to do this evening. Have fun raising your kid!
A rationale that she would understand in this case is, "because this is a time to sleep." That's really as far as you have to go.
 
"Because I said so," is a fine answer if a kid pushes past the quick, simple answer: "It's nighttime sweetie; we sleep now."

Has your daughter met the typical developmental milestones?
 
That's the modern notion: FIRST rule out something medical. Please. I can't begin to count the number of kids that age who sleep just a few hours at night for a protracted season. The discipline issue is having the sheer audacity to run into the parents room, turn on their light (!), and then refuse to go back to sleep. This is a discipline issue if ever there was one. Pussyfooting around with "why won't she sleep" while ignoring these brazen acts of self-projection is a problem.

It's only modern if you live in a cave. My pastor's child was not acting herself and instead of their first step being discipline they took her to the MD and found out she has a very serious medical condition. It's responsible parenting to make sure your child isn't ill. I wasn't at all telling the writer of the OP to not ever discipline his child. I was trying to give him more info so that he could make an informed decision.
 
The problem with not being in the medical field is that the lay-person knows the typical responses people have with different illness and if they don't see those typical responses then they don't think in terms of "maybe something is wrong medically". But everyone is an individual and individuals have different responses to illnesses. I'll list some examples my patients have had.

Diabetes: the typical response for low blood sugar is lethargy, sweating and confusion. A non-typical response is aggression. I've had diabetic patients who become aggressive. My first response isn't that they are being noncompliant and aggressive. My first response is to check their blood sugar and then I give them some glucose and they recover.

Seizures: the typical response for patients who have seizures is generalized convulsions or staring off in space or tremors. A non-typical response is a change in behavior (aggression, confusion, irrational behavior)

Hypothyroidism: the typical response is feeling tired gaining weight etc. The non-typical response is a change in behavior which can mimic psychotic mental disease.

There most likely isn't anything medically wrong with his 2-yr-old (I hope not), but it's not something you can just assume. Most people in America do not get enough sleep for one reason or another which can lead to further illnesses. This does include children.
 
The problem with not being in the medical field is that the lay-person knows the typical responses people have with different illness and if they don't see those typical responses then they don't think in terms of "maybe something is wrong medically". But everyone is an individual and individuals have different responses to illnesses. I'll list some examples my patients have had.

Diabetes: the typical response for low blood sugar is lethargy, sweating and confusion. A non-typical response is aggression. I've had diabetic patients who become aggressive. My first response isn't that they are being noncompliant and aggressive. My first response is to check their blood sugar and then I give them some glucose and they recover.

Seizures: the typical response for patients who have seizures is generalized convulsions or staring off in space or tremors. A non-typical response is a change in behavior (aggression, confusion, irrational behavior)

Hypothyroidism: the typical response is feeling tired gaining weight etc. The non-typical response is a change in behavior which can mimic psychotic mental disease.

There most likely isn't anything medically wrong with his 2-yr-old (I hope not), but it's not something you can just assume. Most people in America do not get enough sleep for one reason or another which can lead to further illnesses. This does include children.

I assume any attentive mother will notice unusual behavior.
 
It is, of course, not mutually exclusive to discipline properly and to be attentive to mitigating factors such as medical conditions that may affect behavior.

I do not think, however, that Ben was wrong in picking up on a tone in the OP. Dear brother Josh, apart from what may ail your child currently (if anything other than willfulness and a testing of you), what your actual words in the OP evinced were a sort of desperation that bespoke defeat: you are allowing your child to get the best of you.

And even if such may happen to mother (and I admire Lily's resolve here!), here's where father needs to strengthen mother and demonstrate his unshakable resolve that this little one will obey and that you, as Ben said, are indeed in charge. At no moment is the child in charge and anything that communicates such does no one in the house any favors: other children, that child itself , and certainly not mother.

Yes, these early years are times of challenge and blessing. Stay strong, loving, and faithful...it will get better. And in that respect, I have to differ with Brother Ken. I know what he means when he says that you could wish them to be two again--but not really. The best thing is fully to enjoy them at every age they are, with all of its attendant encouragements and difficulties.

I don't wish to go back to tomorrow, nor do I wish my children to. I adored their childhood, but I love even more their manhood and womanhood. Your child needs your strength, resolve, and determination, all as part of your love, care, and nurturing. Even if everyone else in the family seems to lack it,, see your role as father as the one who, in Christ, can provide this for the family even if you are the only one doing it at the time.

May the Lord strengthen you in every way that you may encourage and strengthen your wife, providing good and faithful leadership for her and, with her, your children.

Peace,
Alan
 
I assume any attentive mother will notice unusual behavior.

Putting a child to bed for the night who falls asleep and sleeps only 2-4 hours then wakes up is unusual behavior, and I'm very surprised that many here are not concerned about this pattern. If he had said that his child fights him for a couple of hours when he first puts her to bed, then I would have agreed with everyone else about it being a power struggle between parent and child. But the fact that the child goes to bed, falls to sleep, then wakes up after 2-4 hours of sleep (toddlers need 12-14 hours of sleep) is very concerning. But I believe I've made my point.
 
Putting a child to bed for the night who falls asleep and sleeps only 2-4 hours then wakes up is unusual behavior, and I'm very surprised that many here are not concerned about this pattern. If he had said that his child fights him for a couple of hours when he first puts her to bed, then I would have agreed with everyone else about it being a power struggle between parent and child. But the fact that the child goes to bed, falls to sleep, then wakes up after 2-4 hours of sleep (toddlers need 12-14 hours of sleep) is very concerning. But I believe I've made my point.

Oh it's quite common! Just a google search will tell you that, and as SolaScriptura mentioned, and I can attest to. My son must have hit every single growth spurt with a sleep regression. He was up for a good while before he fell back asleep. Never lasted more than a few days at a time.
 
Putting a child to bed for the night who falls asleep and sleeps only 2-4 hours then wakes up is unusual behavior, and I'm very surprised that many here are not concerned about this pattern. If he had said that his child fights him for a couple of hours when he first puts her to bed, then I would have agreed with everyone else about it being a power struggle between parent and child. But the fact that the child goes to bed, falls to sleep, then wakes up after 2-4 hours of sleep (toddlers need 12-14 hours of sleep) is very concerning. But I believe I've made my point.
My (two-year-old) son does it quite often these days. We send him back to bed, and he goes to sleep.
 
Oh it's quite common! Just a google search will tell you that, and as SolaScriptura mentioned, and I can attest to. My son must have hit every single growth spurt with a sleep regression. He was up for a good while before he fell back asleep. Never lasted more than a few days at a time.
But that's the problem. It's not lasting only a few days. The writer of the OP didnt come running here to post this bc his child did this for a few days. Again unusual sleep pattern.
 
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My (two-year-old) son does it quite often these days. We send him back to bed, and he goes to sleep.
He does this day in and day out? How long has he been doing this where he only gets 2-4 hours of sleep a day? Or is he just waking up in the middle of the night then goes back to sleep? Does your child ONLY get 2-4 hours of sleep per day??? It's not unusual for kids to wake up in the middle of the night it's unusual for them to only get 2-4h of sleep.

"she pretty much sleeps for about 2-4 hours a night wakes up, runs in our room (which is fine with us if she'll sleep) turn on the light and refuse to go back to sleep. So, I or my wife will bring her in her room, lay with her until she falls asleep and then she'll be up again."
 
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He does this day in and day out? How long has he been doing this where he only gets 2-4 hours of sleep a day? Or is he just waking up in the middle of the night then goes back to sleep? Does your child ONLY get 2-4 hours of sleep per day??? It's not unusual for kids to wake up in the middle of the night it's unusual for them to only get 2-4h of sleep.

"she pretty much sleeps for about 2-4 hours a night wakes up, runs in our room (which is fine with us if she'll sleep) turn on the light and refuse to go back to sleep. So, I or my wife will bring her in her room, lay with her until she falls asleep and then she'll be up again."
No, he goes back to sleep. Anytime he "refuses" to do what we say he gets disciplined.

It wakes up pretty frequently these days. I don't know just why. The important thing, though, is that he goes back to bed. We trained him to go to sleep in his own when he was a baby.
 
No, he goes back to sleep. Anytime he "refuses" to do what we say he gets disciplined.

It wakes up pretty frequently these days. I don't know just why. The important thing, though, is that he goes back to bed. We trained him to go to sleep in his own when he was a baby.
That is the important thing.....he goes back to sleep and gets his rest. Nothing is keeping him from getting his much needed sleep. This is my last post....i give up lol
 
I appreciate all the comments.

Well, I have some good news. Last night we took the advice of using essential oils. We gave her a bath, then rubbed her down with lavender & roman chamomile oil, read our book together, and half way through the book she was out within, I'd say 20 minutes. She woke up this morning at 5:45 and I'd say we are all in better moods, praise to the Lord.

Crazy that a simple change can fix something like that.
 
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