Eastern Orthodox Critique of Calvin on Icons

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I don't think Calvin was wrong, even if he may have "overstated" his case. I say this because I'm not a hardliner when it comes to images. In other words I don't see a problem with crosses, art, certain images in church or in the home, film, etc. These things are fine when they are respected in the right manner, not as idols or substitutes for God. That's my personal opinion though and I wouldn't suffer lose if I had to give up that conviction.

The Eastern Orthodox make their case form Icons by making a difference between worship and veneration. You might say we worship God but we venerate Paul. Or that's their understanding no matter whether it's Mary, Paul, a saint, or an image of Christ. They would say we are worshipping God when we venerate an image of Christ as the image is an aid to our worship. In an extreme sense that might fly, but I wonder if the average lay EO Christian understands that? Personally I'm not comfortable with the difference between worshipping an Idol and venerating one. My conscience tells me it is wrong to do either! In fact that was my original red flag when I was flirting with EO and RC before coming to know the reformed faith. I simply could not worship/venerate Mary, pray to her, or look on pictures of saints in hopes they might pray for me, etc. The word of God gave me a better conception of who God was even before I understood that was the only place to look that I might 'know' God.

I'm not an authority but my gut tells me the article is skewed by the authors presupposition that icons are biblical and thus Calvin must be wrong. This is similar to what I think the Helsinki schools attitude to Luther was on the subject of Theosis. Their presuppositions blinded them into painting the early Luther teaching Theosis. Whether he may have isn't as important as whether the Bible teaches the doctrine. And in the same fashion does Calvin get it wrong on the matter of Icons? I don't think so. But does that really matter if the word of God teaches otherwise? I say we consult sources like Calvin and WCF, but let scripture have the final say.

I hope that someone will give a detailed critique of the article since I'm not qualified to comment. I'd like to know if in fact he was 'overstating' his case or not particularly.
 
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Pergamum said:
Interesting. Any thoughts? I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.

Where does this article go wrong?


Liturgica.com | Liturgics
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Sometime in early '09 my book on images will be out. I do seek to deal with Orthodoxy's main claim for images being the Incarnation itself. Until then, you can read a great article by David VanDrunen of Westminster Seminary California that deals with Orthodoxy's claims: "Iconoclasm, Incarnation, and Eschatology: Toward a Catholic Understanding of the Reformed Doctrine of the ‘Second’ Commandment." International Journal of Systematic Theology 6:2 (April 2004): 130–147.

If you have problems opening this let me know . . .
 
Schaff's introduction to the Second Council of Nicaea in the last volume of his Post-Apostolic Fathers has a nice, brief introduction to the matter. It can be found many places free online.
 
Zenas said:
Pergamum said:
I don't know much about the Eastern Orthodox folks.
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Does anyone?
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Good point!

The Eastern Orthodox, I understand, don't consider any doctrine outside of the context of the church. In other words, it must be addressed in the sphere of the sacramental life of the the church. Outside of that the EO theology of icons, theosis, and monasticism suffers misrepresentation. Whether they are right in that belief or not I don't know. But I think it is profitable to give them the benefit of the doubt and address things like icons in the broader context of their soteriology. What I mean is, I think the other doctrines are informed or guided by their larger theological understanding of salvation and anthropology. With that being said, we know their soteriology is seriously flawed and unbiblical, so should we give much attention to things like icons?

As a side note, I've always been interested in their doctrine of Theosis. I understand what they say is unbiblical but I wonder if there is any truth to it within the context of reformed thought.
 
Robert Letham's book on EO is superb: Through Western Eyes. He avoids misrepresentations, pot shots, and straw men. He honestly convinces certain difficulties with both Reformed and EO presentations of certain positions. I found it to be very informative and charitable.

-----Added 12/6/2008 at 12:07:06 EST-----

Why not get it from the horses' mouth?

Amazon.com: Three Treatises on the Divine Images (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press Popular Patristics Series): of Reading John, of Damascus, Saint John, Andrew Louth: Books

St John of Damascus, like almost all writers of the period, wrote simply and clearly without sacrificing depth. The book is relatively cheap and can probably be read in one day. And you get to say you have read some of the church fathers, which is always cool. Disagree with him at the end--I have some problems with some of his proof-texts and conclusions but I respect him.

On theosis:
Amazon.com: Athanasius (The Early Church Fathers): Khaled Anatolios: Books

One of the world class scholars on St Athanasius. It shows how theotic his theology is. If you are writing a general paper on EO, then you will be expected to quote Vladimir Lossky. Lossky can be weird at times--he is like EO's version of Meredith Kline--but on theosis he is rather straightfoward.

Amazon.com: In the Image and Likeness of God: Vladimir Lossky, John H. Erickson, Thomas E. Bird: Books

The first and last books listed can easily be read in a week without denting the pocketbook. Khaled's book is kind of hefty in more than one way.
 
Wow, Jacob - you've been studying the east a lot lately haven't you?

Can you recommend anything about the Cossaks of the Don who fought the Ottoman's? I am reading about Lepanto and the siege of Malta and the battles in the Crimea between Mslms and "Europeans" is fascinating to me right now.
 
Pergamum said:
Wow, Jacob - you've been studying the east a lot lately haven't you?

Can you recommend anything about the Cossaks of the Don who fought the Ottoman's? I am reading about Lepanto and the siege of Malta and the battles in the Crimea between Mslms and "Europeans" is fascinating to me right now.
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*DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT EASTERN ORTHODOX*

I had to write that disclaimer because somebody was sure to make that accusation. It has happened before.

Yes, I have been studying the East lately. I fell in love with them when I realized it was they who held the line against the Islamic hordes (usually when the West was caving in), both in the middle ages and today. The story of Holy Serbia and Prince Lazar in 1389 is one of unparalleled beauty and heartache. I have a few sites on the Cossacks/Crimea and Ottomans, which I will send to you in a PM
 
Ivanhoe said:
*DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT EASTERN ORTHODOX*

I had to write that disclaimer because somebody was sure to make that accusation. It has happened before.
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I still think you are EO. I had to write that because I wanted to be a jerk. And that too has happened before.
 
Pergamum
The MacDaddy

Eastern Orthodox Critique of Calvin on Icons
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It's not really about Mr Calvin. It's about what the Holy Spirit speaking through Scriptures says about "icons" in worship.

Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 107. Which is the second commandment?

A. The second commandment is, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.[517]
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[517] Exodus 20:4-6. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
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-----Added 12/6/2008 at 04:57:33 EST-----

Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[529] counselling,[530] commanding,[531] using,[532] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[533] tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[534] all worshipping of it,[535] or God in it or by it;[536] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[537] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them,[538] all superstitious devices,[539] corrupting the worship of God,[540] adding to it, or taking from it,[541] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[542] or received by tradition from others,[543] though under the title of antiquity,[544] custom,[545] devotion,[546] good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;[547] simony;[548] sacrilege;[549] all neglect,[550] contempt,[551] hindering,[552] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[553].
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The Scripture basis for this is overwhelming. It is one thing that displeases our God:

[529] Numbers 15:39. And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring.

[530] Deuteronomy 13:6-8. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him.

[531] Hosea 5:11. Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment. Micah 6:16. For the statutes of Omri are kept, and all the works of the house of Ahab, and ye walk in their counsels; that I should make thee a desolation, and the inhabitants thereof an hissing: therefore ye shall bear the reproach of my people.

[532] 1 Kings 11:33. Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father. 1 Kings 12:33. So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

[533] Deuteronomy 12:30-32. Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

[534] Deuteronomy 4:15-19. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Acts 17:29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Romans 1:21-23, 25. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.... Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[535] Daniel 3:18. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. Galatians 4:8. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

[536] Exodus 32:5. And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

[537] Exodus 32:8. They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

[538] 1 Kings 18:26, 28. And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.... And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. Isaiah 65:11. But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

[539] Acts 17:22. Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. Colossians 2:21-23 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

[540] Malachi 1:7-8, 14. Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts....But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

[541] Deuteronomy 4:2. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

[542] Psalm 106:39. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

[543] Matthew 15:9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[544] 1 Peter 1:18. Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers.

[545] Jeremiah 44:17. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

[546] Isaiah 65:3-5. A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Galatians 1:13-14. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

[547] 1 Samuel 13:11-12. And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering. 1 Samuel 15:21. But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.

[548] Acts 8:18. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money.

[549] Romans 2:22. Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Malachi 3:8. Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

[550] Exodus 4:24-26. And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

[551] Matthew 22:5. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise. Malachi 1:7, 13. Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.... Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

[552] Matthew 23:13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[553] Acts 13:44-45. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
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The rationalization of the worship being "indirect" versus "direct" and therefore that it is acceptable to God (man deciding "directness") is, to be charitable, nonsense.
 
Perg, the Cossacks have had many of their ancient perks reinstated, and they fought as independent units in the last war between Georgia and Russia, and I noticed that many in-depth news reports carried lots of info on Cossack history, so Google News will get you lots of good information quicker and cheaper than books.

Thanks, Ivanhoe, for your posts on this thread.
 
I have a 500 year old Icon, I figure it is "safe" I don't worship it, to me it is a piece of art.:2cents:
 
I am not Orthodox, but I live among them so I am a little bit familiar with their theology and practice. As for the icons, the theology thereof is based on the concept of Incarnation, the revelation of the Image of God in Jesus Christ. And, of course, the icons are not to be worshiped, but venerated, as has already been said. But as you can guess, there is little (if any) difference for the vast majority of "traditional" believers, who may trully worship an icon of the Mother of God if it is believed to be miracle-working.
 
Ivan said:
Jon Lake said:
I have a 500 year old Icon, I figure it is "safe" I don't worship it, to me it is a piece of art.:2cents:
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How did you come to get that?
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My Aunt, who was not a deeply religious woman got the piece from her Mother-In-Law, sadly...my Aunt felt anything remotely Christian was uncouth, low-brow, and was ashamed for even a Bible to be in her penthouse, in this case she did not like what " it stood for" so...who better than to her Nephew who is "into all that Jesus mess", so she gave it to me, the intent was a tongue in cheek insult, I cheerfully took it, showed it to a friend who once owned an art gallery, he at first glance said "Dude, this is MAJOR old." He was correct it is in fact around 5 centuries old. Her loss...
 
My undersatanding is tha as the EO do not really hold with original sin they do not recognise the inherant idolitry that Calvin was (rightly) so aware of.

You can just imagine the Jews before the golden calf arguing that they were just venerating the statue.
 
The EO does not believe in orginal sin, and reject the doctrine as the invention of Augustine, they would be in line with John Cassian.
[video=youtube;q6wGElO62B0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGElO62B0[/video]
[video=youtube;lynylykrFao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lynylykrFao[/video]
 
TimV said:
Perg, the Cossacks have had many of their ancient perks reinstated, and they fought as independent units in the last war between Georgia and Russia, and I noticed that many in-depth news reports carried lots of info on Cossack history, so Google News will get you lots of good information quicker and cheaper than books.

Thanks, Ivanhoe, for your posts on this thread.
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There are two interesting youtube vids on the Cossacks. One is done from the standpoint of Mother Russia, the other from the standpoint of Enlightnemnt democracy. Unfortunatley, I can't access youtube from work.

Cool about the cossacks involvement in the war against Geogia. Here is a neat video on Cossacks training (begins about 8 minutes into the video)

[video=youtube;X8uDi8Agkf8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8uDi8Agkf8[/video]
 
In my research on the matter, EO will point to the images of cherubim stitched into the walls of the tabernacle, or the statues and images on the ark of the covenant as two examples of images being rightly used in the worship of God.
 
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