Driscoll on the Regulative Principle + some questions

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

Regulative Principle | Mars Hill Church
http://download.marshill.com/files/2008/03/02/20080302_regulative-principle_en_transcript.pdf
Click on "Transcript" and do a ctrl+f search on the word "Regulative". I'm very very disappointed that a pastor with such widespread influence would talk such rubbish on such a glorious doctrine as the RPW. How people give him a free pass on anything is astounding.

If someone would like to blog about this, please do so!!! My Pastor's really into Driscoll (and so are heaps of the young restless and "reformed" (ugh)... But anyway.

Secondly, I have a few questions regarding EP. I am fully RPW and Psalm-singing. Yet I have a few questions especially regarding how the RPW was practiced in the OT and the extent of it.

1. Reading through 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel, I have noticed that David frequently breaks the RPW. He inquires of the LORD without the help of the High priest. He just grabs the Linen ephod and seeks God. I thought it was the job of the High priest to ask of God??? And only the Aaronites were to wear the ephod? And yet God did not strike him down, but answered his prayer!!!!!

2. David dances before the LORD, even wearing a linen ephod!?!?!?!! only Aaronites/Levites were supposed to!?!?!(2 Sam 6:14). There is NO command to wear the linen ephod as a non-levite, and NO command to dance before the LORD as a form of worship. YET God did not strike him down. Was God pleased with such worship? Does that mean we ought to dance before the LORD? What is the extent of the RPW in dancing?

3. David ordered music to be played and singers to sing praises to God when carrying up the ark in 2 Samuel 6:5 / 1 Chronicles 15:27---. Until this point God had NEVER commanded music to be played, nor praises to be sung to Him!!!! And God did not strike anyone down as He did in Leviticus 10 for doing something He had not commanded. (yes, trumpets were to signal the moving of the camp in Exodus, but that's not worship). what is even more interesting is that EVEN before the temple worship is established, musical instruments were used and songs were sung!?!!?! What songs were they singing? Inspired? Non-inspired? ARGH....

4. In a bitter argument with Michal, he then says "Therefore I will play music before the LORD". (2 Samuel 6:21). Since when did God command people to worship Him by playing music!?!?!


In Support of the RPW from 2 Samuel / 1+2 Chronicles:
1. David didn't tell the Levitical priests to carry the ark the first time round. 1 Chronicles 15:13 does say that God broke out against Uzzah (and David) that day because they had not done what God had commanded...
2. 2 Samuel 22 that David as a prophet wrote an inspired song, which was then given over to the Levitical guild of seers ... Asaph, Jeduthun, Heman,...
3. 1 Chronicles 6:31 also mentions that it is after the ark was brought up from Obed-edom's house, that David then appointed the Levitical seers for Inspired worship... so all sung worship was inspired!!!
4. 2 Chronicles 35:15, 2 Chronicles 29:30, 1 Chronicles 25:5 all demonstrate that Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun are Seers, literally, prophets who speak the Words of God

 

[sevenzedek]

Popcorn

 

[GloriousBoaz]

 

[Andres]

I didn't read the Driscoll article, but I've already come to know this about him - Driscoll is not confessional, plain and simple. Anyone who claims to be confessional shouldn't be taking cues from him.

 

[Jack K]

I have noticed that David frequently breaks the RPW.

David breaks worship regulations? Maybe. Or perhaps we ought to concede that, as a prophet and God's king, David establishes regulations for worship. Maybe he isn't breaking regulations but rather he's the one (in part) showing us what proper worship ought to be. Just throwing it out there...

 

[Rich Koster]

I didn't read the Driscoll article, but I've already come to know this about him - Driscoll is not confessional, plain and simple. Anyone who claims to be confessional shouldn't be taking cues from him.

I am one who has many time asked for prayer for MD and hoped he would get some good mentoring. However, I have also noticed he has a strong will to "color outside the lines". Keep praying for this influential man. Andrew, I am in agreement with you.

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

I have noticed that David frequently breaks the RPW.

David breaks worship regulations? Maybe. Or perhaps we ought to concede that, as a prophet and God's king, David establishes regulations for worship. Maybe he isn't breaking regulations but rather he's the one (in part) showing us what proper worship ought to be. Just throwing it out there...

Yes Jack, I know this is one of the EP-er's argument that David was a prophet and his words were literally considered the Word of God. But it seems kinda... off? To just dismiss David's breaking of the Regulative Principle, especially with regard to wearing an linen Ephod!!! And instituting new worship (dancing, playing of music, of singing...). Let us also not forget that he stuffs it up pretty badly in the case of Uzzah. Is dancing regulative then? I see no New Testament prohibitions on dancing, thus why don't we dance with all our might before the LORD with the singing of the psalms? (please don't answer with "it's just a shadow, we worship in Spirit and Truth now).

Thanks for the replies so far, PLEASE JOIN IN!!!! NEED HELP BUMP!!!

 

[Marrow Man]

I know this is one of the EP-er's argument that David was a prophet and his words were literally considered the Word of God. But it seems kinda... off?

2 Chronicles 29:25:

He [Hezekiah] then stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king’s seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the Lord through His prophets.

 

[ooguyx]

I was a deacon at MH during this time and I remember that he tried so hard to get the RPW out of the top ten in that list. Then when he delivered that sermon, I saw why. in my opinion, this is some of the laziest thinking/studying that Driscoll has ever done. One of his main points is that we don't want Sunday to be different than any other day of the week. Seriously? Also there is no attempt to bring the Bible to bear on the issue.

Essentially he didn't want to preach himself out of a job by teaching that being a hipster isn't exactly worship.

 

[Jack K]

I have noticed that David frequently breaks the RPW.

David breaks worship regulations? Maybe. Or perhaps we ought to concede that, as a prophet and God's king, David establishes regulations for worship. Maybe he isn't breaking regulations but rather he's the one (in part) showing us what proper worship ought to be. Just throwing it out there...

Yes Jack, I know this is one of the EP-er's argument that David was a prophet and his words were literally considered the Word of God. But it seems kinda... off? To just dismiss David's breaking of the Regulative Principle, especially with regard to wearing an linen Ephod!!! And instituting new worship (dancing, playing of music, of singing...). Let us also not forget that he stuffs it up pretty badly in the case of Uzzah. Is dancing regulative then? I see no New Testament prohibitions on dancing, thus why don't we dance with all our might before the LORD with the singing of the psalms? (please don't answer with "it's just a shadow, we worship in Spirit and Truth now).

Thanks for the replies so far, PLEASE JOIN IN!!!! NEED HELP BUMP!!!

Admittedly, my convictions about what regulated worship allows are broader than those of some people on this board, but...

You seem to start with the premise that by the time of David, God was already long done with giving regulations for worship. Hence, anything David did that we don't see being commanded before his time was a violation. Am I right?

The difficulty with that premise is that God's regulations are based on the WHOLE of Scripture, not just the part that happened before David, and Scripture was still being written at that time (some of it written by David). If David was wrong to institute singing because Moses didn't mention it, does that mean Moses was wrong to construct the Tabernacle because Abraham didn't mention it? Was Abraham wrong to do circumcisions because Noah didn't mention it? Do you see where your premise takes you?

Some of your examples might require thinking about the difference between organized, public worship and spontaneous, private celebrations of God's blessings. But even accounting for that, it's important to affirm that ALL of Scripture and ALL God's prophets, all the way through the New Testament apostles, are necessary for a full understanding of how we ought to worship. The books of Samuel and the Chronicles are part of that. Regardless of where one stands on EP or instruments, we need to agree that in many spots David was revealing God's instructions for worship, not breaking them—even when he did something not mentioned before. Make sense?

 

[JOwen]

2. David dances before the LORD, even wearing a linen ephod!?!?!?!! only Aaronites/Levites were supposed to!?!?!(2 Sam 6:14). There is NO command to wear the linen ephod as a non-levite, and NO command to dance before the LORD as a form of worship. YET God did not strike him down. Was God pleased with such worship? Does that mean we ought to dance before the LORD? What is the extent of the RPW in dancing?

I just completed my commentary on 2 Samuel for the RHB KJV Study Bible due out next winter. The ephod here is not a Levitical ephod. It was David's undergarment of choice, probably worn to identify his devotion to the LORD. Others wore this as well. The young boy Samuel in 1Sa 2:18 is said to wear one. He was not even close to the required age of initiation into the priesthood, and further, never was one not being a Levite. So in my estimation, there is no RPW infraction in this passage.
Just my

 

[JOwen]

One more thing, in each of the 9 instances in 1 & 2 Samuel where we read that David, "enquired of the LORD" we have no reason to believe that he did so in any other way that via the Urim and Thummim and the priesthood. Knowing that the proper way to enquire of the LORD in the past (Exodus 28:15-30) was via these mediums, it follows that David observed proper protocol in seeking an answer from the LORD.

Blessings,

 

[Dieter Schneider]

There are some links on the topic of worship on my blog (see e.g. under worship). Peter Masters and Chris Hand very helpful!

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

I have noticed that David frequently breaks the RPW.

David breaks worship regulations? Maybe. Or perhaps we ought to concede that, as a prophet and God's king, David establishes regulations for worship. Maybe he isn't breaking regulations but rather he's the one (in part) showing us what proper worship ought to be. Just throwing it out there...

Yes Jack, I know this is one of the EP-er's argument that David was a prophet and his words were literally considered the Word of God. But it seems kinda... off? To just dismiss David's breaking of the Regulative Principle, especially with regard to wearing an linen Ephod!!! And instituting new worship (dancing, playing of music, of singing...). Let us also not forget that he stuffs it up pretty badly in the case of Uzzah. Is dancing regulative then? I see no New Testament prohibitions on dancing, thus why don't we dance with all our might before the LORD with the singing of the psalms? (please don't answer with "it's just a shadow, we worship in Spirit and Truth now).

Thanks for the replies so far, PLEASE JOIN IN!!!! NEED HELP BUMP!!!

Admittedly, my convictions about what regulated worship allows are broader than those of some people on this board, but...

You seem to start with the premise that by the time of David, God was already long done with giving regulations for worship. Hence, anything David did that we don't see being commanded before his time was a violation. Am I right?

The difficulty with that premise is that God's regulations are based on the WHOLE of Scripture, not just the part that happened before David, and Scripture was still being written at that time (some of it written by David). If David was wrong to institute singing because Moses didn't mention it, does that mean Moses was wrong to construct the Tabernacle because Abraham didn't mention it? Was Abraham wrong to do circumcisions because Noah didn't mention it? Do you see where your premise takes you?

Some of your examples might require thinking about the difference between organized, public worship and spontaneous, private celebrations of God's blessings. But even accounting for that, it's important to affirm that ALL of Scripture and ALL God's prophets, all the way through the New Testament apostles, are necessary for a full understanding of how we ought to worship. The books of Samuel and the Chronicles are part of that. Regardless of where one stands on EP or instruments, we need to agree that in many spots David was revealing God's instructions for worship, not breaking them—even when he did something not mentioned before. Make sense?

Hey Jack, fear not, I am already RPW!!

Yes I totally agree (and I should have mentioned, that I have already thought through many EP counter-objections to the way David instituted new worship which had not been previously commanded. The most definitive being that David is a prophet and that He spoke the words of God). Just a side note, the case of Abraham and Moses are different in that GOD instituted the worship by speaking "THUS SAYS THE LORD. CIRCUMCISE ON THE SEVENTH DAY. Or "MAKE THE ALTAR 1.5 cubits x 2.5 cubits". No one can dare to challenge the RPW based on those instances, because it's just so clear that God is instituting worship.

I know this is one of the EP-er's argument that David was a prophet and his words were literally considered the Word of God. But it seems kinda... off?

2 Chronicles 29:25:

He [Hezekiah] then stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king’s seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the Lord through His prophets.

Thanks Brother Tim, I missed out on this command. This verse alone should silence all detractors against the RPW/EP with regards to the Davidic institution of Inspired, Levitical-prophetic-regulated musical worship.

I wanted to cover my basis in case there were other stronger defenses of the RPW apart from the glaring fact that David was a prophet!!!!


*****Thanks to Rich, Roy and Andrew for chipping in too. And the popcorn audience. I have prayed for MD once or twice, so really my accusation against him is uncalled for... the tongue is fire!

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

2. David dances before the LORD, even wearing a linen ephod!?!?!?!! only Aaronites/Levites were supposed to!?!?!(2 Sam 6:14). There is NO command to wear the linen ephod as a non-levite, and NO command to dance before the LORD as a form of worship. YET God did not strike him down. Was God pleased with such worship? Does that mean we ought to dance before the LORD? What is the extent of the RPW in dancing?

I just completed my commentary on 2 Samuel for the RHB KJV Study Bible due out next winter. The ephod here is not a Levitical ephod. It was David's undergarment of choice, probably worn to identify his devotion to the LORD. Others wore this as well. The young boy Samuel in 1Sa 2:18 is said to wear one. He was not even close to the required age of initiation into the priesthood, and further, never was one not being a Levite. So in my estimation, there is no RPW infraction in this passage.
Just my

One more thing, in each of the 9 instances in 1 & 2 Samuel where we read that David, "enquired of the LORD" we have no reason to believe that he did so in any other way that via the Urim and Thummim and the priesthood. Knowing that the proper way to enquire of the LORD in the past (Exodus 28:15-30) was via these mediums, it follows that David observed proper protocol in seeking an answer from the LORD.

Blessings,

Thanks Brother Jerrold, yes I agree that David's enquiry unto the LORD does not lean either way, so an assumption that David circumvented the Priestly order would be invalid.

Thanks for the Samuel example!! My memory is shot... just read 1 Samuel in it's entirety in the last week, yet didn't realise that Samuel wore a linen ephod even though he was an Ephraimite, in no way a priest.

P.S. I'll be coming up with more questions, will start a new thread. Get your popcorn ready!

 

[GloriousBoaz]

Ready!

 

[Andres]

Perhaps this is helpful:

“Another peculiarity of the Reformed Presbyterian Church is that no instruments of music are used in divine worship. They believe that instruments were used in the tabernacle and temple worship by the Levites, and at the time of the offering up of sacrifices by the priests. As these services were wholly typical and were done away with at the coming of Christ, so also all the accompaniments and material supports of that service. At the advent of Christ the building was completed. and the scaffolding was taken down. Christ and the Apostles never used an instrument of music in the synagogue worship, although they used the Psalms. If instruments had been necessary to acceptable worship, the example or direction of Christ in this matter would have been given. Christ requires a spiritual service—the melody of the heart with the fruit of the lips. The leading writers and fathers of the Church give instruments no place in the worship. They were introduced by Pope Vitalian, in A. D., 660, to “augment the eclat of religious ceremonies.” Being of Romish origin, all true Protestants should look upon the innovation with suspicion.

The true principle of Christian worship is “What has the Lord required,” and not what He has not forbidden. All Presbyterians recognize the Westminister standards, and the Confession of Faith says we are to “sing Psalms with grace in the heart,” and “the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and is so limited by His own revealed will that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men.” It is an admitted fact that instruments and operatic choirs destroy congregational singing, and substitute a meaningless service for that which every heart should render unto God. Instruments are used for the express purpose of making the service attractive, and the praise offering is often rendered for the worshippers by those whose lips and hearts have never been touched by the love of God. When the worship is thus rendered by machinery, God is robbed of that heart service and spiritual communion which each worshipper should have with Him in the ordinances of grace.”

From The History of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America by William Melancthon Glasgow, p59. (HT: exclusivepsalmody.com)

 

[One Little Nail]

I have noticed that David frequently breaks the RPW.

David breaks worship regulations? Maybe. Or perhaps we ought to concede that, as a prophet and God's king, David establishes regulations for worship. Maybe he isn't breaking regulations but rather he's the one (in part) showing us what proper worship ought to be. Just throwing it out there...

Yes Jack, I know this is one of the EP-er's argument that David was a prophet and his words were literally considered the Word of God. But it seems kinda... off? To just dismiss David's breaking of the Regulative Principle, especially with regard to wearing an linen Ephod!!! And instituting new worship (dancing, playing of music, of singing...). Let us also not forget that he stuffs it up pretty badly in the case of Uzzah. Is dancing regulative then? I see no New Testament prohibitions on dancing, thus why don't we dance with all our might before the LORD with the singing of the psalms? (please don't answer with "it's just a shadow, we worship in Spirit and Truth now).

Thanks for the replies so far, PLEASE JOIN IN!!!! NEED HELP BUMP!!!

I am fully RPW and Psalm-singing. is what you mentioned earlier brother, you seem to misunderstand what the RPW means,
Let me refresh you,The RPW holds that for a thing to be established it needs a positive Command not just silence or no prohibition,
Lutheranism & C of E hold to the no prohibition rule as such,vestments,"christian" Holy-days etc have no positive affirming commands
as such & are not Lawful yet the 2 employ them both amongst other things not commanded, as they have no scriptural warrant,
as for dancing there is no NT warrant for it in Public Worship but if you wish to dance to the Lord in your private worship,
by all means just warn us when you wish to wear the see through linen ephod, brother.

 

[Andres]

Is dancing regulative then? I see no New Testament prohibitions on dancing, thus why don't we dance with all our might before the LORD with the singing of the psalms?

Our brother above makes a good point. What you describe is the normative principle of worship, not the regulative.

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

My dear brothers Robert and Andre,

I DO understand the RPW and try to follow it (for to claim that one is "perfectly" following the RPW with regards to worship is a BIG call... do you ever kneel in worship to God? That is essentially the primary mode of worship. Do you hallow God's name and worship with a Holy Fear every time you worship? Do you TRULY understand the psalm you are singing? Be careful brothers, to suppose that you truly follow the RPW perfectly).

That said, I may understand the RPW differently to you guys. Let me explain. When something is commanded in the Old Testament regarding worship and if it is not either:
1. fulfilled by Christ in the NT
2. specifically prohibited/abrogated in the NT
--->Then it follows that such commands from the OT continue.

That was the case I was trying to illustrate with dancing. And the same could go for musical instruments. And even of infant baptism!! (yes I did just open a can of worms).

Easy examples of worship which Christ completely fulfilled are the entire tabernacle worship, the role of the Aaronites/Levites, of the sacrifices, of all the ceremonial cleanliness. Plenty of verses in the NT which teach us that the ceremonials are "of no use against the indulgence of the flesh" and are entirely fulfilled by Christ.


Yes I have heard in the case of dancing and musical instruments, that Giradeau/Calvin/various Puritans argue that musical instruments & dancing were "a shadow of things to come." Therefore now that we are in the NT we worship in "Spirit and in Truth", only singing Psalms with grace in our hearts, since the instruments and dancing were just shadows of True Worship. I'll have to do more reading.

Is dancing regulative then? I see no New Testament prohibitions on dancing, thus why don't we dance with all our might before the LORD with the singing of the psalms?

Our brother above makes a good point. What you describe is the normative principle of worship, not the regulative.

Andre, please read the entire thread. I do follow the RPW and a careless reading of my posts above has lead to such an unfounded accusation that I follow the NPW. Firstly, David is the one who instituted the True worship of God. And He danced. He instituted Dancing. And God did not strike Him down. God was pleased with it. In fact Michal was condemned for despising the dancing of David. In worship we are to do all that God has commanded, to not turn to the right and to the left. And of All that God has not commanded, we shall not do, for it is sin.

The question here is not whether I follow the RPW or not. I do. The question is: to what extent are musical instruments, dancing, circumcision on the 7th day etc etc, to what extent are these shadows of the things to come? Are they even shadows? What did dancing and instruments shadow? Are they part of the "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle"? I'm undecided at this point and the various snippets I have read using the "Search function" of PB have not convinced me at all.