Dreams, visions, messages from God
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MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
Well without challenging him and his claims directly, you could ask with legitimate concern how he knows they are from the Lord. God cannot by nature contradict himself, so knowing what He has already revealed is very important.
If you notice that something he's saying is contrary to what God has revealed in his Word, maybe ask him to look at the portion of scripture that is relevant.
I don't particularly know what the church fathers views on these kind of claims were, but I'm sure they would insist that any supposed revelation would have to be subordinate to the written Word.
If you notice that something he's saying is contrary to what God has revealed in his Word, maybe ask him to look at the portion of scripture that is relevant.
I don't particularly know what the church fathers views on these kind of claims were, but I'm sure they would insist that any supposed revelation would have to be subordinate to the written Word.
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
That's a good question. I have some friends that are into that stuff. If they have done the research, and have concluded that those things are still given to Christians today, and have researched the other perspective, I probably wouldn't say anything. From what I've experienced that just creates tension. If they have not explored the idea of visions and those things no longer being a part of the Christian life, then maybe you can bring it up and point that person to some resources that they can study.
I personally think the easiest way to address/confront those things, is not necessarily exegetically, but by testing such things. I have never met one Christian who can validate such gifts. Maybe that would take you expressing interest, and asking the person to demonstrate such things for you. If they can in a legitimate way, then that is awesome and worth embracing, but if they cannot, they should see their spiritual dilemma.
I personally think the easiest way to address/confront those things, is not necessarily exegetically, but by testing such things. I have never met one Christian who can validate such gifts. Maybe that would take you expressing interest, and asking the person to demonstrate such things for you. If they can in a legitimate way, then that is awesome and worth embracing, but if they cannot, they should see their spiritual dilemma.
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
Like most of the posts you have been posting about these conversations, you need to ask for more details brother.
To be honest I can't take everything in when people talk about these things because I find it unsettling. It's like a feverish excitement/anxiousness with some folk.
This particular chap is a bit consumed by new world order and end times and is Premillennialist.
He described one vision where he saw like a fire red sky above the houses and said it was a sign of terrible things to come. I find him difficult to reason with. He takes the "prophecies" in Daniel and Revelation literal and part of the premillennialism he believes in.
I've told him I'm no longer premill or charismatic and that I've heard these things countless times. At a past church I attended there was always people giving visions but they never came to fruition. There was a few regarding a church plant. One said they saw a road near the Church plant turn into a river of gold. And another said they saw a vision of two boats pulling the nets up overflowing with fish, so many they couldn't cope. These visions were supposedly signs that large numbers of people would be saved by the Church plant. Before the plant, one lady stood at the front and said God had showed her a green light as a sign to say all systems go for the Church plant.
The more time I spend away from all that, the more bizarre it becomes to me. I've told this brother these things in the hope it will make him rethink what he believes, but of course the charismatics usually believe firmly in that theology just as the Reformed are rooted in their beliefs.
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
The ideas he’s getting are probably originating from and/or encouraged by things he‘s listening to online. This formed a significant part of my entrance into the Christian faith and I was extremely zealous as a new convert being wrapped up in hearing about people‘s dreams visions, etc, mainly on youtube. It is often tied into dispensationalist (often hyper-dispensational) or “free-grace” (antinomian) teachings, and there are many people who are self professed “watchmen/watchwomen“ who believe they are sounding the trumpet of the warning call to the church and the world for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in light of all the “signs”.
My advice, following the above comments, is to have patience with him.
Try to encourage or discuss the great doctrines of the faith instead of focusing on signs. Pray for wisdom. Perhaps offer resources to better invest his time and zeal in, like good sermons or books (if you need suggestions I’m sure the PB will have plenty), or even offer to do something together like Bible study or charitable deeds.
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Yes I agree. He said he asked God for confirmation about a dream and he got it. To which I replied how do you know if it was God confirming it.
One of the problems with this theology (continuationist, charismatic, dispensational premillennialism) is they can give various texts in scripture to say that what they experience is in line with scripture.
I said the visions, dreams, miraculous gifts, were only for a specific time while scripture was formed. And his response was that scripture doesn't say they are not for today.
Agreed.
In what ways could we ask a charismatic or dispensationalist to validate what they say?
I found some sensible points here:
africa.thegospelcoalition.org
Are Dreams and Visions Messages from God? // Africa Study Bible
Often we jump to the conclusion that our dreams or visions are messages from God. But the Bible shows us there is more than one type of dream...
africa.thegospelcoalition.org
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Tell me if I am saying too much or too little, but are not these two verses in Hebrews the quintessential Scriptural basis for telling your friend, "No! You are not receiving "dreams, visions, and messages from God." (This is the gist of your message–and NOT a suggested phrase to use in your desire to help your friend)
Hebrews 1:1-2
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
but in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things,
through whom also he created the world.
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Free Christian
Puritan Board Sophomore
I became a Christian in a Pentecostal Church that was full on with everything, Signs, tongues, dreams, slain in the spirit, every sin was demon posession the list goes on.
The more I read the Bible the more I saw things wrong there. I came to the Reformed faith eventually. I was never able to talk to or convince any of my friends in that church that these things were either not Biblical at all or had ceased. I was told Satan had blinded me by most and the head Pastor told me I was going to Hell. They all turned their backs on me. I found them virtually impossible to talk to reasonably in the end.
No matter what I showed them it was as if their eyes were blinded and minds closed. Anyone that spoke against anything was under the control of Satan to them.
Over the years, maybe it's just me that isn't very convincing, I found that you cannot argue the truth into anyone. I talk to them but have come to know when I'm talking to a brick wall. There is no verse or passage that will convince this type unless God wants them to see.
Pray for them that God will open their eyes.
The more I read the Bible the more I saw things wrong there. I came to the Reformed faith eventually. I was never able to talk to or convince any of my friends in that church that these things were either not Biblical at all or had ceased. I was told Satan had blinded me by most and the head Pastor told me I was going to Hell. They all turned their backs on me. I found them virtually impossible to talk to reasonably in the end.
No matter what I showed them it was as if their eyes were blinded and minds closed. Anyone that spoke against anything was under the control of Satan to them.
Over the years, maybe it's just me that isn't very convincing, I found that you cannot argue the truth into anyone. I talk to them but have come to know when I'm talking to a brick wall. There is no verse or passage that will convince this type unless God wants them to see.
Pray for them that God will open their eyes.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Morning Brett,
I had a similar beginning with a rather humorous turn of events.
I was part of the Assemblies of God Church, but try as I might, I could never get any of the experiences that were all the rage in the early 70s.
Then one day, for reasons I can only see God's smiling face, my ultra works-orientated pastor lent me Spurgeon's Lectures to my Students.
Well, you might guess the results of that snafu.
It didn't take me too long before I read – Lecture III – The Need of Decision for the Truth. The rest is history.
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Modern Spiritual Gifts as Analogous to Apostolic Gifts: Affirming Extraordinary Works of the Spirit within Cessationist Theology
by Vern S. Poythress [Published in The Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 39/1 (1996): 71-101. Used with permission. pdf here.] Abstract The Book of Revelation is inspired. Modern visio…
frame-poythress.org
Scroll down to section 12 for history from the Puritans and other Reformed leaders. Poythress is a prof at Westminster TS in PA. You must be intellectually honest and face this Reformed history. Spurgeon also was known for a couple dozen "words of knowledge" during his ministry.
Ironically, while I believe all these things can and do happen, and spiritual gifts should be earnestly desired and not despised, I think I saw far more counterfeits in my charismatic background than anything else. The objective word less important, and subjective "words" made more important. Its sad and hard to figure out when you are in it. But the Reformed fathers accepted such things as you will read.
Phil D.
ὁ βαπτιστὴς
I can't claim to ever have had a spiritual dream or vision, but I have had some strange "intuitions" from time to time. One small kind of these experiences happened again last-night/this-morning, which made me think of this thread... Not that it's anything extraordinary or consequential, but every once in a while I will get a certain song in my head on a given Saturday night - not just as a passing thought, but to the point where I start humming or singing it - only to go to church the following morning and have it be the opening song in worship. I am not involved in selecting the songs in any way, and we sing from a sizable repertoire, so it seems something more than simple chance. Maybe that's all it really is, but I'm not so sure. It's not that I think there's any real significance to it, but on the other hand it's hard to just ignore or pretend it's not happening. Anyone else here ever experience this sort of thing?
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MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
I've had this happen a few times, but I simply consider it a blessing to mediate on it for a while before singing it corporately.
What I find more frequently is that conversations arise relating to a portion of scripture I have been studying intently. Sort of a providential arrangement for mutual edification.
I mean honestly, everything we experience is within God's providence, but not every thought/idea comes from Him.
Northern Crofter
Puritan Board Sophomore
I grew up in a congregation whose history (generations before I was born) began as a circuit-riding stop for a mining community that embraced extreme charismaticism. Think Appalachian snake-handling minus the snakes. There was a massive reformation in the generation before me that rejected all this and replaced it with American evangelical fundamentalism. Thus by my time any hint of charismaticism was taboo. Looking back, this may have quenched the Spirit at times. I cannot deny also having unexplained
But I would say these were very private and personal occurrences similar to Phil's example that would have been of no profit to anyone else and so they were kept private and personal. I think that is far away from folks publically saying "I had a vision for you/the Church." I find those somewhat suspect - if God intended them for the edification of others, I believe He would have avoided a fallible middleman. There is a danger in sharing such things - if they turn out to have any untruth you know where they originated from (the influence in your imperfect self from the world, the flesh, or the Devil) and you have thus acted as the mouthpiece of such evil. Better to quietly keep it to yourself and test it. If nothing else, such a heightened period of attention to spiritual influences is a profitable spiritual activity. (Note: I just realized this may sound like I am criticizing Phil for sharing an example - that is not my intention at all. I am agreeing with him that he is not alone).
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
I know many recovering charismatics who are still persuaded that they got visions and met demons, and I no longer bother arguing for cessasionism with them--I just admit that I never had such things happen to me, but that I do have God's sure promises and directives in His word, and that they have those as well. If we can both agree on Scripture as the rule of life and sufficient revelation of God, what does it matter if they still think they saw visions or heard words? It's not a hill I need to die on, and as long as they're not disobeying God by having their fantasies, it really matters very little.
Northern Crofter
Puritan Board Sophomore
But is this possible?
Phil D.
ὁ βαπτιστὴς
This is part of what makes me wonder and ask. I've never shared this type of experience with other people I know personally, other than my wife, but I thought I would risk sharing it with valued people I don't personally know, who might provide some insight on the issue. The subject-matter of the experiences isn't a concern in itself, it's always good and pleasant enough. But it also seems to serve no obvious purpose like the edification of others, or to have any substantial spiritual benefit for myself. It just happens. I simply don't know what to make of it. Perhaps I never will...
That was helpful.
Unfortunately I have to agree about trying to reason with them.
Personally, I find the amillennial approach more reasonable than the other schools.
Ben mentioned recovering charismatics who "met demons". This makes me think of some founders of Christian cults and false religions who supposedly encountered angels and higher beings. Joseph Smith of the Mormons was one and I think I read Mohammed had a vision of a glorious being. Surely that was either a fallen angel or Satan himself.
Is it possible for a Christian to be influenced by, to hear from, or see a fallen angel/demon or Satan?
MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
Demonic influence is a thing. I do think some people who think they have communion with God, have communion with something else.
I certainly don't look for coincidences and I'm not into numerology but I had a strange experience 11 years ago.
My income was low one week and I very unusually put aside exactly £23 for the offering at church the following Sunday.
Several days later I got a call from my sister saying our brother was in hospital with jaundice and liver cancer and wasn't expected to live long. I went to see him shortly after and asked the family if I could have a moment in private with him. This was to witness to him.
I told him that I was a Christian and a little of my testimony. I also told him of the two thieves/criminals either side of Jesus on the cross and that they are a picture of humanity. One rejected Him, and one believed in Him. My brother said he believes in God and prays to Him.
That night at home I wanted to know which gospel that account was in and I discovered it was only in Luke 23.
The next morning my sister called and said Joey had died and did I want to see him before they took his body away. So I went to the hospital to see him. When I opened the door to his room the first thing I saw a large card on his bedside table with 23rd Psalm in large writing. It felt strange then and still does now, but again, I'm not in the habit of looking for signs.
But what are the chances of this just being by chance?
My income was low one week and I very unusually put aside exactly £23 for the offering at church the following Sunday.
Several days later I got a call from my sister saying our brother was in hospital with jaundice and liver cancer and wasn't expected to live long. I went to see him shortly after and asked the family if I could have a moment in private with him. This was to witness to him.
I told him that I was a Christian and a little of my testimony. I also told him of the two thieves/criminals either side of Jesus on the cross and that they are a picture of humanity. One rejected Him, and one believed in Him. My brother said he believes in God and prays to Him.
That night at home I wanted to know which gospel that account was in and I discovered it was only in Luke 23.
The next morning my sister called and said Joey had died and did I want to see him before they took his body away. So I went to the hospital to see him. When I opened the door to his room the first thing I saw a large card on his bedside table with 23rd Psalm in large writing. It felt strange then and still does now, but again, I'm not in the habit of looking for signs.
But what are the chances of this just being by chance?
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
To which @Northern Crofter replied–
Hi All,
I am not responding directly to these two quotes above but more generally to a view many Scottish Presbyterians held sometime near the mid-17th century.
You might want to look at the thread started by @Reformed Covenanter in 2020 on this post's theme.
I recommend the whole thread, but let me invite you to look at post #26, which is my cynical response to a radical cessationist on the PB.
Please look at post #30 by @Jeri Tanner for some valuable thoughts on the term 'prophesy' used in the 17th century vs. our 21st.
Northern Crofter
Puritan Board Sophomore
In a world that attempts to smother us with a materialistic view, I take these moments as subtle assurances that there is more than just finite matter. Similarly, I often get the same sense from experiences in nature (assurance that there is a Providential Creator) but so can someone else seeing the same sunrise so there is also a difference. Perhaps there is a theological parallel with special and general revelation at a personal level - we have these special moments of personal assurance of God's existence and special experiences in creation that others also generally experience. In any event, I cannot deny that the mirror is a little less cloudy in moments like these. I don't think I would ever use the word "vision" to label any of my experiences, but I would not deny that others may have such. The point of distinction for me is whether someone claims the experience is to be shared for the instruction of others vs. a personal, private experience.
Sovereign Grace
Puritan Board Sophomore
How much weight should we put on dreams? What about the dreams we have that are, to put it nicely, provocative? If we put weight on the “good” dreams, then shouldn’t we put the same equal weight on the provocative ones? Plus, would that mean we’ve committed adultery? I ask these to further the discussion. FYI, I’m not a believer in dreams like some. I’m a Sola Scriptura kinda guy.
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
It's neat to read about some of your experiences. I have wanted and searched for signs and the like, to better interpret God's providence, only to find that such a pursuit left me even more puzzled and confused. I have found that the great majority of the happenings of my life have seemed so confusing, void of any real reason, and just plain messy. I have a very philosophical mind, and not being able to reason the happenings of life greatly affected me for a time. I found much comfort in Ecclesiastes, and basically just became content with the mystery. There's no other option.
But even after talking to charismatics who claim to hear from God directly and personally, they couldn't even give me clear answers as to how and what that looks like. There was no reason to any of it, and no sense in it, which led me to become very discouraged about that stuff.
But even after talking to charismatics who claim to hear from God directly and personally, they couldn't even give me clear answers as to how and what that looks like. There was no reason to any of it, and no sense in it, which led me to become very discouraged about that stuff.
Free Christian
Puritan Board Sophomore
Hi. I could never actually experience the things others were either. I couldn't talk in tongues and was told that if I keep praying for it and trying it would come. Slain in the spirit, it never really happened to me. I admit I went up on stage and stood waiting to have my forehead touched and when it was I let "myself" fall back, why I can only guess now was so I wasn't the only one left standing. The two catchers were not very strong and one just grabbed some skin of one of my arms and it really hurt. I even saw one lady not get caught quick enough and fall and hit her head which by the look on her wincing face hurt. Im not sure how any of that is supposed to bless a person.Morning Brett,
I had a similar beginning with a rather humorous turn of events.
I was part of the Assemblies of God Church, but try as I might, I could never get any of the experiences that were all the rage in the early 70s.
Then one day, for reasons I can only see God's smiling face, my ultra works-orientated pastor lent me Spurgeon's Lectures to my Students.
Well, you might guess the results of that snafu.
It didn't take me too long before I read the chapter, Lecture III, The Need of Decision for the Truth. The rest is history.
I remember when I was coming out of that, I'll call it Cult, I asked one of the pastor's there "how come there are no examples in the Bible of slain in the spirit and the only near example I could find was when they came for Jesus and fell backwards, but they were definitely not being blessed?" He had no answer.
I really do see them as a cult. Where I was was also an Assembly Of God church, in Richmond Melbourne Aus.
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