Doug Phillips

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satz

Puritan Board Senior
This thread is indicative of the Reformed "all or nothing" approach. A man has to be in total agreement "with us" or off with his head. E.g, Phillips is wrong on one issue, therefore let's go after him! If someone is stupid enough to view Phillips as a cult leader, I'm sorry; there is nothing I can do. To the normal cognitions, take it for what its worth.

And again, with all the attacks on the faith, is he really the danger today? Another example of Reformed folk failing to fight the real enemies.
I think we need to remember that this conversation is happening in the context of the OP asking people to articulate where they differed with Phillips. So obviously much of the responses are 'negative'. Yes, Colleen did ask people to state where they agree, and to an extent people have done that, but I think the very nature of an internet medium such as this is people tend to type more when they have something to disagree with while simply thinking 'Amen!' in their heads when they agree.

Also, it is because Mr Phillips has so many good things to say that he is worth critiquing. If he got nothing right, or only a few things right, who would even bother with him? (Well, actually that's not entirely true, I recall a few threads right here on the PB about Rick Warren that were pretty voluminous) However, it is because he is good on many things I that I think it is worth pointing out where he goes wrong.

Finally, I think it is unfortunate that some of his errors (ie going too far on bible gender roles in society) are actually promoted as a significant aspect of his ministry. So when people take issue with him, it is not that he has a great ministry and people have gone searching though his trash for some minor views he holds and are using those against him. Rather, people take issue with some of his views because he is actively teaching them as a large part of the Vision Forum agenda (and I don't use that word in any negative sense).
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
Jacob:

Do you not think people can dress their kids modestly by themselves? Quite honestly teaching boys and girls how to dress and act can be done without emulating a scary combination of Hasidic and FLDS "style." In other words, mom and dad being united in deciding what is and is NOT appropriate and choosing styles that are age appropriate and not too revealing. There is a way to dress ones girls modestly even from Target and Macy's: it takes longer and means Mom has to be consistent. Again there are plenty of nice church families who manage to dress their girls like unto young LADIES. As for the Goth kids: please tell me your session would not turn them away. :( Those kids do calm down and some may even belong to your Elders. Hopefully when you grow up some you can understand that.

Giving into fear is not a Godly reason to run and hide from the modern world (with the exception of the internets).
 

Coram Deo

Puritan Board Junior
Instead of wasting time looking for modest clothing in target or macy's which can take hours if not more, why not make modest, simple, plain clothing for our daugthers.

As for the Goth youth, no they should not be turned away but aleast admonished.. As for the Elders children, elders are suppose to have their children in submission not in rebellion which is what Goth is ALL about.. Rebellion. If an Elder child is one and the Elder does not correct this then the Elder needs and is required to step down until he has his house back in rule or the Teenager is outside of his house due to his rebellion.

Michael

Jacob:

Do you not think people can dress their kids modestly by themselves? Quite honestly teaching boys and girls how to dress and act can be done without emulating a scary combination of Hasidic and FLDS "style." In other words, mom and dad being united in deciding what is and is NOT appropriate and choosing styles that are age appropriate and not too revealing. There is a way to dress ones girls modestly even from Target and Macy's: it takes longer and means Mom has to be consistent. Again there are plenty of nice church families who manage to dress their girls like unto young LADIES. As for the Goth kids: please tell me your session would not turn them away. :( Those kids do calm down and some may even belong to your Elders. Hopefully when you grow up some you can understand that.

Giving into fear is not a Godly reason to run and hide from the modern world (with the exception of the internets).
 

kvanlaan

Puritan Board Doctor
Hang on a sec. I don't think that Jacob is out to machine-gun every non-theonomist/Vision Forum dissenter in the world.

What I think his fear is (and how far off the mark is it?), is that the influences of the world in general are not healthy for our kids. Vision forum products don't present any real problem in my eyes, the only danger is falling into "Doug Philips is a demi-god, and Vision Forum is his prophet." The 'stuff' itself is fine, there's nothing wrong with it, and I for one would much rather my boys be playing 'colonial soldier' (albeit in a uniform sewed by their mom and sisters, no need to pay the big bucks) than about 90% of the trash available on the market today.

Also, it is not about turning away 'Goth kids' but I think it IS about mom and dad's responsibility to not let it get to that point. The nihilism/fatalism/perpetual sorrow that goes along with that lifestyle has no place in the Christian family (and there's a :worms: for Christian liberty, but Goth is a movement without and in complete rebellion to God and I don't think that comment is unreasonable.) Sure, maybe they will turn themselves around and become elders one day, but too often they just don't. Growing up in the CRC, I saw plenty of kids that were allowed to "sow their wild oats" and they simply never came back from the sowing. Why let it go that far? Why not bring up your children in His ways and His ways alone? (And no, this is not saying that "Vision Forum" is 'His way'...)
 

Redaimie

Puritan Board Freshman
Jacob:

There is a way to dress ones girls modestly even from Target and Macy's: it takes longer and means Mom has to be consistent. .
:up:

One thing I do is sew lace on the sleaves of plain shirts that my daughter can wear under a sun dress or I alter a dress to make it modest. You can get great buys at Target & you don't have to spend much to turn it into a modest dress.
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
Kevin to a point I agree with Jacob but he is young and thinking in black and white (that being said I am feeling ancient :rofl:). I think like anything else this is a tool that some families can use to help them but this can also be a stumbling block. Not every family will have the same dynamic and there will be single moms, single dads, blended families, biracial couples and all sorts of variables in any given congregation. I used Goth since the term is misapplied to kids who wear black and dye their hair/have mohawks. If they are showing up on the Lord's Day, sitting reverently in church and other than looking funny are nice kids, why turn them over to the sewer that is Mars Hill or Res Life (Google GR for these two abominations: they almost make the pastorettes at Eastern Ave CRC palatable). I do pray we do show love when correcting these kids as well.:worms:
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
:up:

One thing I do is sew lace on the sleaves of plain shirts that my daughter can wear under a sun dress or I alter a dress to make it modest. You can get great buys at Target & you don't have to spend much to turn it into a modest dress.
:agree: And selective thrift store/rummage sale finds are useful. :up:
 

Coram Deo

Puritan Board Junior
Mars Hill with Mark Driscoll is an abomination.... You are so right on target with that comment....

Question? What is Easter Ave CRC and what are their problems?

Michael

Kevin to a point I agree with Jacob but he is young and thinking in black and white (that being said I am feeling ancient :rofl:). I think like anything else this is a tool that some families can use to help them but this can also be a stumbling block. Not every family will have the same dynamic and there will be single moms, single dads, blended families, biracial couples and all sorts of variables in any given congregation. I used Goth since the term is misapplied to kids who wear black and dye their hair/have mohawks. If they are showing up on the Lord's Day, sitting reverently in church and other than looking funny are nice kids, why turn them over to the sewer that is Mars Hill or Res Life (Google GR for these two abominations: they almost make the pastorettes at Eastern Ave CRC palatable). I do pray we do show love when correcting these kids as well.:worms:
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Hang on a sec. I don't think that Jacob is out to machine-gun every non-theonomist/Vision Forum dissenter in the world.

What I think his fear is (and how far off the mark is it?), is that the influences of the world in general are not healthy for our kids. Vision forum products don't present any real problem in my eyes, the only danger is falling into "Doug Philips is a demi-god, and Vision Forum is his prophet." The 'stuff' itself is fine, there's nothing wrong with it, and I for one would much rather my boys be playing 'colonial soldier' (albeit in a uniform sewed by their mom and sisters, no need to pay the big bucks) than about 90% of the trash available on the market today.

Also, it is not about turning away 'Goth kids' but I think it IS about mom and dad's responsibility to not let it get to that point. The nihilism/fatalism/perpetual sorrow that goes along with that lifestyle has no place in the Christian family (and there's a :worms: for Christian liberty, but Goth is a movement without and in complete rebellion to God and I don't think that comment is unreasonable.) Sure, maybe they will turn themselves around and become elders one day, but too often they just don't. Growing up in the CRC, I saw plenty of kids that were allowed to "sow their wild oats" and they simply never came back from the sowing. Why let it go that far? Why not bring up your children in His ways and His ways alone? (And no, this is not saying that "Vision Forum" is 'His way'...)
I completely agree. If this would simply be acknowledged and not pretend like concerns are unwarranted or that we need not care about the fact that ideas are taken to excess then I have no problem with it.

I'm not against girls playing with girlie things or wearing lace and what not. When one becomes a teacher and writes books and gets a following, though, one has to bear some responsibility to temper comments so that divisive behavior is not reinforced.

As I said before, I can still read Doug Wilson with profit. I'm not a fan of throwing babies out with bathwater but I also want to point out pitfalls.

Just a couple of months ago I had a couple move to the island that found out I was here on the island from the PB. We met up a few times and they were the stereotypical category 3 Reformed couple I talked about. They were brand new to the Reformed faith and had only read books on theonomy. They had both been flaming Arminians not a couple of years ago and were now tacked hard the other way.

I asked them what Church they were attending. They weren't. Why? Because there wasn't a Church out here that was good enough for their new found convictions. I rebuked the young man and told him that he needs to be in a Church. I also told him I would not mentor him (as he desired) until he started attending Church regularly. I refuse to indulge a man's appetite for theology in general when they refuse to worship in a Church with other Christians who aren't worthy of their standards.

Now is this Doug Philips fault? No, not fully, and only an imbalanced reading of what I'm concerned about would conclude that. He can't be held directly accountable for every immature expression of teaching. In another sense, though, it is the fault of a leader if his followers are moving in a direction unexpected and no corrective action is taken to ameliorate the trend. Military commanders understand this very well - that they're responsible for the messages they both explicitly and implicitly communicate. If a follower takes a directive in a direction you didn't intend then it's time to do some work to tighten up the message a bit.

From my vantage point, simply saying that a man has no responsibility for the actions of his followers is simply unacceptable.

Not all should be teachers.... Better to receive criticism and look at the fruit than judgment for what your teaching produced in others.
 

Augusta

Puritan Board Doctor
Mars Hill with Mark Driscoll is an abomination.... You are so right on target with that comment....

Question? What is Easter Ave CRC and what are their problems?

Michael
Don't be so quick to judge Mark Driscoll. The White Horse Inn interviewed him. He has separated with the Emergent Church movement and was sounding quite orthodox to me. Sure he needs to turn paedo
and learn about the RPW and stuff but his theology seemed pretty sound otherwise. He is at least getting the gospel right over there. We all start somewhere.
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
Mars Hill with Mark Driscoll is an abomination.... You are so right on target with that comment....

Question? What is Easter Ave CRC and what are their problems?

Michael
Two words: Woman Pastors. Also known as pastorettes. So Mars Hill is a franchise like McDonalds or Calvary Chapel? :rofl: Cute. :rant:
 

jenney

Puritan Board Freshman
Don't be so quick to judge Mark Driscoll. The White Horse Inn interviewed him. He has separated with the Emergent Church movement and was sounding quite orthodox to me.
He's bewildering to me because he does seem to comprehend the basics of the gospel and has some good things to say about our needing to be authentic with one another, to believe the Bible rather what we want it to say, to live our faith and not just talk about it. He does have some valuable things to offer.

His coarse jesting and crass speech, however, are not fitting to an elder in the church. It indicates an immaturity of spirit that, in my opinion, disqualifies him from office.

Any man who uses, from the pulpit, phrases like Moderation: quote from Driscoll's book that Bob Vigneault edited out is a man who needs to discipline his tongue and attitude. I don't think it is worth sifting the wheat from the chaff. I can get the same "good stuff" just reading my Bible and applying it, so I'd rather just skip Driscoll and spend more time with more edifying people.

Doug Phillips might be one of those people, but I don't think we can lump the two men into the same category. One must always discern and separate wheat from chaff. I'm suspecting Phillips has a considerably smaller amount of chaff than Driscoll.
 
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BobVigneault

Bawberator
Jenny, I really do appreciate you sharing that quote by Mr. Driscoll. I was thinking of buying that book. I researched the quote and saw other quotes that were equally repulsive. Won't be buying the book. I think I recommended it to Kevin Van Der Laan as well. DON'T DO IT KEVIN!

I decided to edit it out because this is the family forum and well, you're right, that is rude stuff. Ugh! Sorry but thanks for helping me save some money.
 

jenney

Puritan Board Freshman
i hate to say it Bob,

but I picked one of the milder quotes.

I don't mind being moderated! I included that because quite often people don't believe how foul-mouthed he really is, but sadly, there is much more in his books. And you are right, I don't want my own children reading my own post!

If anyone feels a need for the actual quotes, you can p.m. me.
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
Here's a link to a fellow's blog who reviewed Driscoll's book. The long article contains the quotes that Jenny was referring to. Thank you again Jenny. Check it out if you really need to see whether or not these reflect on the man's character. I would encourage you to examine yourself and make sure you aren't checking it out for prurient reasons. It's a fine line.
 

MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Here's a link to a fellow's blog who reviewed Driscoll's book. The long article contains the quotes that Jenny was referring to. Thank you again Jenny. Check it out if you really need to see whether or not these reflect on the man's character. I would encourage you to examine yourself and make sure you aren't checking it out for prurient reasons. It's a fine line.
Read the link.
Whoa! Mr Driscoll does indeed seem to be a loose cannon.:2cents:
 

kvanlaan

Puritan Board Doctor
Jenny, I really do appreciate you sharing that quote by Mr. Driscoll. I was thinking of buying that book. I researched the quote and saw other quotes that were equally repulsive. Won't be buying the book. I think I recommended it to Kevin Van Der Laan as well. DON'T DO IT KEVIN!
Too late, too late. I bought the book, I've read it, and now I'm lost, swirling my way down the toilet bowl of apostacy.

I blame you, Bob.

I'll see you on the left side of the throne with all the other goats...





Just kidding. I didn't get it. Some of the quotes brought out in the review were just jaw-dropping. On top of some obvious theological issues, the guy just sounds like a real jerk.
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was looking for a good book on the church and you recommended a bad one.' Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we recommend a bad book to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not recommend a good book to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but those who recommended good books into eternal life.”

Whew! That was a close one Kevin. :candle:
 

kvanlaan

Puritan Board Doctor
You know, I think that anyone who read the review on challies.com would think twice before buying it. And not because of the opinions expressed by the reviewer, but because of the quotes directly from the text.

If he was my pastor and I had read the book, I'd have a hard time talking to him about any sort of problem/situation in my life for fear that it wouldn't qualify as a serious enough issue, and I'd be bawled out for it. (And told to quit being such a cry baby and get over it.):eek:
 

MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Just don't call him at 3 a.m. whatever you do!
You got that right. I wouldn't dare. 'course if he went off on me like that at anytime 3am or 6pm it wouldn't matter to me really, I'd probably be "losin' some of my religion" and telling him off.
 
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