Doug Phillips

Status
Not open for further replies.

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I learned more about politics and theology from these series than....well, we won't go there.
Witherspoon DVD collection.
Witherspoon CD collection

I also saw other extreme stuff like the Puritans on the site.

Now, I will also give a balanced, non-deragotory, non-stereotypical critique of Phillips: I think he is wrong on the Christian Film Festival . I think the the tube as a medium is inherently flawed and subject to the law of diminishing returns.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
For what its worth, my kids, Lord willing, will more likely play with wooden swords than mind-numbing video games. But in doing so I don't see how I am communicating a dangerous message to them.

Many people are not sophisticated to distinguish between the principle and the toys.
Probably, but that doesn't affect me. I mean, I am grieved that they go off that end but I am not responsible for other catalogue readers.

I grant you are in a manly profession. I was mainly talking about me as the guy who became (I hope) more manly.
 

Redaimie

Puritan Board Freshman
I have a question, what authority is Pastor Phillips under? Is he part of any denomination?

If the answer is no though I would agree with him on some things like the authority men are given over women & the need for women to dress modestly etc, I think he takes some things to extremes that I believe the bible does not. As such I would be hesitant to be under the authority of someone who has no authority over him & who could than enforce discipline that is harsher than what the bible commands.

Some questions I would ask is would you be disciplined for sending your daughter to college? Would you be disciplined if women wore pants? would you be disciplined if as a woman you worked outside the home? Would you be able to bring a non believer to church & feel they'd be welcome? I don't know what their practice is for sure but I do have reservations from what little I have read.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I have a question, what authority is Pastor Phillips under? Is he part of any denomination?
Don't know.

As such I would be hesitant to be under the authority of someone who has no authority over him & who could than enforce discipline that is harsher than what the bible commands.
I don't think anyone here is wanting to be under his authority. I was just approaching him from the standpoint of "he has cool resources."

Some questions I would ask is would you be disciplined for sending your daughter to college? Would you be disciplined if women wore pants? would you be disciplined if as a woman you worked outside the home? Would you be able to bring a non believer to church & feel they'd be welcome? I don't know what their practice is for sure but I do have reservations from what little I have read.
I guess if you went to his church, and he was an elder in said church, you would probably have to work those issues out with him. But I don't think anybody here wants to immediately move to his chuch and seek his authority.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
For what its worth, my kids, Lord willing, will more likely play with wooden swords than mind-numbing video games. But in doing so I don't see how I am communicating a dangerous message to them.

Probably, but that doesn't affect me. I mean, I am grieved that they go off that end but I am not responsible for other catalogue readers.
Perhaps the difference between you and me, is that I do worry about those who lack discernment. Maybe it's because I've been in the profession that I've been in for so long that it's easy to see the tendency for people who are being exposed to a "manly principle" for the first time to think that they've discovered the essence of discipline and manliness. Reformed people have their "cage stage." Marines have their young Marines with "Death before Dishonour" t-shirts with a skull and two bloody knives. I used to think those t-shirts were cool - about 20 years ago. I just see so much of the externals to be a form of this kind of "uniform".

I don't know what it is in the mind of man that makes him want to go into these kinds of extremes. My only point is that some never grow out of them. I'm not attracted to faux manliness any more than I'm attracted to faux-feminity. Do I prefer to see young ladies in nice dresses as opposed to black with earings all over their faces? Absolutely but it's not as if it's a choice between Grunge and the Society for Creative Anachronisms. Some people can only live in those dichotomies. Take a look at pics of my kids sometimes and see how nicely they're dressed.

I realize that is not your problem. All I'm arguing is that I wish these kinds of people didn't have a another place to "get their fix" because this movement is, in some ways, antithetical to our priorities. The catalog, in form, feeds that movement.

Incidentally, my son has a full array of armour and weapons. He can outfit a retinue of tiny warriors with many weapons from many centuries. That's not the point.

I grant you are in a manly profession. I was mainly talking about me as the guy who became (I hope) more manly.
Good. I have an admission to make: I've learned a lot from Wilson over the years. He speaks in a way I can appreciate and makes some good points about real masculinity and toughness. He was Navy so he only learned so much though. ;)

But, even before he started moving into the FV, his stuff was fraught with over-statements. I once regretted recommending a book of his to a novice.

I just wish people weren't learning how to be men and women for the first time from books. That's a big part of the problem. When you have a flesh and blood mentor, they can smack you across the head when you're starting to act like a dork. As it is, some never get mentored and remain stuck in a place of stilted development.
 

bob

Puritan Board Freshman
While I do receive the Vision Forum catalogue, my involvment with the organization has been only to order a few books from them. I have read a bit of commentary from the catalogue, but outside of that I really do not have enough informatiuon on the man or the organization to share an opinion. I am aware that there are those who enjoy Vision Forum and those who do not. Nothing is new under the sun, I suppose.

I work as a carpenter and grew up in a midwestern rural setting, so I suppose I can be reckoned as one who enjoys living off the land. I fish, hunt, work with wood, and burn with wood. My wife teaches our children, cans the produce I bring in from the garden, and makes bread from flour ground here at home. We raise chickens and tend to our orchard. Our boys play with swords and shoot their bb guns and our girls play with dolls and cats. They also watch Dora while the boys read Harry Potter novels! (If this be and admission or a confession, you be the judge!)

All the saints come from various backgrounds and cultures and I suppose that all of us have certain ideals that we are committing to our children. For those who have the resources and the recognition necessary to allow to become known outside of a local setting, these ideals are naturally going to be manifested by way of writing and advertising.

The Scriptures are not silent regarding the roles of the genders and it our duty to think seriously about how we regard our children. We are also going to have a tendency to bring up our children within the context of our own uprbringing and customs. It is unlikely I am going commit to my own children much of a global, industrial slant considering that I have never lived in a city and consequently the outworkings of such a lifestyle are rather foreign to me. If I were to have the ability to reveal and recommend my teaching and customs to the masses, it is only natural that my products are going to reflect my passions and desires.

If a man enjoys American history and strives to commit certain historical values to their children, why are we so quick to take offense when he publicly shares these desires? If a man is convinced that women are to be the keepers at the home, why are we going to grumble when we see him teaching his daughters the domestic lessons of the home?

Everything that we do, we are to do to the glory of God. I believe that every aspect of our lives needs to be examined by the Word of God, which includes evaluating what we teach our kids and what we allow them to do, not excluding even the menial chore of considering the toys we allow into our home.

There are always those who embrace a certain ideal and become loyal to a cause. There are those who ultimately are going to make nonessential matters more essential than they deserve. While we always groan when we observe those that seem overly zealous over incidentals, we need to reign in our easily offended egoes and consider the bottom line. Is Christ being preached? Is there a desire to train up children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? If so, then I shall rejoice, yea, and do rejoice. If buying your daughters China dolls and your boys a wardrobe of revolutionary costumes is something you desire to do, than fill those doll houses and wardrobes to the glory of God.

We can all be prone of the sin of vainglory and pride as we consider our own habits. One may revel in the number of revolutionary custumes their boys own while another revels in how many they do not own. Some boast of the conservatism while others boast of their lawful liberality. Each pick at the other and both are guilty of the same.

I praise God for all those who love their children and strive to raise them to the glory of God. We may differ in the incidentals. Some saints don't allow thier children to read Harry Potter or watch Dora. Some don't allow the television or the computer in the home. Some make these things more essential than need be. May God bless all those who are striving to make a difference. I suppose all of us have our own goofiness that we not only tolerate, but also defend.

The saints of God would do well to be more tolerant of one another and to pray for one another. Unfortunately, we seem to delight more in tossing each other under the bus.

In Christ,
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
The saints of God would do well to be more tolerant of one another and to pray for one another. Unfortunately, we seem to delight more in tossing each other under the bus.
Well, after all of that, I hope that if you mean to imply that my comments about this stuff is the equivalent of tossing another under the bus you would just come out and say: "...as Rich did above."

I believe the tenor of my piece was to point out that there is a tendency for some to become excessive at the exclusion of recognizing that there can be other expressions of the same principles. That is to say, I have no problem if you want to live off the land but I do have a problem when people see living off the land as inherently "...what this Church is about...."

I don't agree precisely with this:
There are always those who embrace a certain ideal and become loyal to a cause. There are those who ultimately are going to make nonessential matters more essential than they deserve. While we always groan when we observe those that seem overly zealous over incidentals, we need to reign in our easily offended egoes and consider the bottom line. Is Christ being preached? Is there a desire to train up children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
I think the manner in which we promote nonessentials does much to obscure the essentials. The only true passion we should be promoting within the Church is Christ.

I have a lot of personal convictions that I live out quietly with my family. I do train and mentor others but I am careful not to impose personal convictions and desire that many come to the conclusions I have after they've studied.

I believe my thoughts in this thread are complementary with my concern in the thread about children's Church. My problem is not that people with these convictions exist, it's that they tend to congregate and form Churches with people who have the same secondary convictions. It then becomes the secondary convictions that people notice first. At that point, it's not a matter of whether someone "on the outside" has a bruised ego or not.

I can get along with Americans, Filipinos, Japanese, Chinese, Arabs, Indonesians, urbanites, suburbanites, and rural folk. My problem is not making them want to be like me. I have no pride that I'm better than any of them.

I do believe that it is un-Scriptural for a Church to take on the character of a secondary issue so that it is proclaimed just as clearly (even more clearly) than the Gospel is.
 

kvanlaan

Puritan Board Doctor
Rich, I think the flesh and blood mentors are essential, (and would most likely be mom and dad or a family member, for the most part) but my daughter absolutely loves reading Elsie Dinsmore books and I'm fine with that (don't worry, I know that's not what you're on about). I think giving them these sorts of reading materials (or books like Johnny Tremaine, etc.) just help reinforce values that we're already trying to instill. But it's like you said - mentor first; dad's behaviour is going to instill a lot more in them than a whole raft of books on the Sons of Liberty. And heaven forbid that we make the Christian childhood all about being inserted into the Vision Forum mold. I'm sure it's easy enough to go overboard.

I just think the toys are great and would much rather have had stuff like that when I was younger instead of a Coleco video game set. The coonskin caps are a bit too "let's recapture the '50s", but for the most part I find it hard to fault the selection of stuff for sale or much of the attitude that goes with it.

BTW, I would be honored to have Rich or any of the saints on this board throw me under a bus if it was needed... :D
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
BTW, I would be honored to have Rich or any of the saints on this board throw me under a bus if it was needed... :D
{sniff} {sob} I'm all pheklempt.

That's what fellowship is all about. I'd love to throw you under the bus.

Actually, you should completely understand how important it is to "...be all men to all people..." in a foreign country. I'll always cherish being in a foreign culture and having an opportunity to express Biblical principles without letting my "Americanism" get in the way.
 

kvanlaan

Puritan Board Doctor
I do know what you mean - in some ways, it is impossible to keep our "Americanism" from coming up when abroad. As foreigners, we are each man an ambassador for our home country. But, it also means that we are free of the societal molds that would dictate certain behaviours and manners, were we back in our home countries. We are Christians first, and this comes in handy here in China.
 

Kevin

Puritan Board Doctor
Here it is:

What problem do any of you have with Doug Phillips? Curious. Also explain any parts where you are in agreement with him, please. Trying to understand due to terms such as "hyper Phillipism" and "hyper Uniting Church and Home".
His view of Baptism & Church Government.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
But, as Indonesians sometimes say, "Kalau Guru kencing berdiri, murid akan mencoba kencing berlari.." (if the teacher pees standing the students will try to pee running) Those groups of folks who listen to the Uniting Home and Church crowds often try to pee running and outdo what Doug Phillips rights and they enter their own homeschooling "cage stage" I guess and over-emphasize these tertiary matters. Often the visionary who starts a good movement takes a background to those who read him and take his views one steps further.
:rofl: I totally LOVE that saying! I'm putting that into my all time favorite quotes library. That expresses so much truth!

That is why I have litrally met with dozens of Uniting Home and Church people that do church in their basements.... because they are too convicted to tolerate any larger group that doesn't dot all of their I's, even when those I's are tertiary issues.
I thought you were doing to say that they don't tolerate those groups that don't dot all their I's, even though they are not capital i's.
 

Kevin

Puritan Board Doctor
:ditto: to What Trevor said.

I was at a provincal Home School board meeting this weekend and we were talking about future conference speakers. In that context Doug's name came up. Now I knew Doug before he became THE Doug Phillips, and I always liked him even when we were argueing over Baptism. However the consesus was that he would be to polarising of a speaker and he would not "travel well". That is his themes are too distincly American (capital A) as opposed to christian (small c).:2cents:

BTW one of our board members told us that a Fundamental Baptist group had "taken a stand against Phillips".
 

LadyFlynt

Puritan Board Doctor
His view of Baptism & Church Government.
:agree:


Trevor, I believe your last few points were excellent (the outdoing).

from earlier in the thread though...the other issue is the pressures that may not be intentional but are there simply because our beliefs are not supported by certain churches, and the influence is there upon your children whether intentional or not.

BTW, having been raised part of my childhood outside of the US, I would have to say that these churches are the ones boxed in if they feel they have to just go along with society.
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
This is a rambling polemic so I'll try to tighten this up in my conclusion:

Our goal in training our children should not be focused on the clothes they wear, the toys they play with, or whether they learn how to shoot and sew. Our focus ought to be on training men to be lovers of Christ, to be providers, to be courageous in their convictions, and to cherish women in preparation for loving a wife as Christ loves the Church. We ought to be training women to guard their hearts, to be excellent in all things, and to never allow a man to woo her that she does not respect as much as Dad or someone who won't love them as much as Dad does.

All the other stuff is nice but the "refreshingly wrong" part of it becomes dangerous because it becomes a point at which some people focus on the externals rather than the heart. Paul's guidance to men and women in the Scriptures doesn't use the words "shotgun, needles, dollies, or fishing" anywhere in the Epistles.
:amen:
 

Redaimie

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally Posted by SemperFideles

All the other stuff is nice but the "refreshingly wrong" part of it becomes dangerous because it becomes a point at which some people focus on the externals rather than the heart. Paul's guidance to men and women in the Scriptures doesn't use the words "shotgun, needles, dollies, or fishing" anywhere in the Epistles.


Yep :amen:

Though my daughter loves to bake & my husband (who likes hunting) has taught her & the boys how to shoot too.
 

Answerman

Puritan Board Sophomore
By "taking dominion" I do not mean having 20 babies, teaching them knitting and log-cutting, and passing that down to the next generation. Taking dominion is to see how the Christian faith informs and transforms my work-environment, my community, etc.
Of course, I am sure that you wouldn't rule out having 20 babies, if they are trained up in the nurture an admonition of the Lord.

:D
 

Answerman

Puritan Board Sophomore
Though my daughter loves to bake & my husband (who likes hunting) has taught her & the boys how to shoot too.
I taught my 9 year old daughter how to shoot, and after only 5 or 6 matches (of 5 shots each), she has killed 4 squirrels in 4 tries with her pellet gun. She was getting 1.25 inch clusters at 30 feet. Kinda reminds you of that marine sniper motto, "one shot one kill".

:D
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
This thread is indicative of the Reformed "all or nothing" approach. A man has to be in total agreement "with us" or off with his head. E.g, Phillips is wrong on one issue, therefore let's go after him! If someone is stupid enough to view Phillips as a cult leader, I'm sorry; there is nothing I can do. To the normal cognitions, take it for what its worth.

And again, with all the attacks on the faith, is he really the danger today? Another example of Reformed folk failing to fight the real enemies.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
This thread is indicative of the Reformed "all or nothing" approach. A man has to be in total agreement "with us" or off with his head. E.g, Phillips is wrong on one issue, therefore let's go after him! If someone is stupid enough to view Phillips as a cult leader, I'm sorry; there is nothing I can do. To the normal cognitions, take it for what its worth.

And again, with all the attacks on the faith, is he really the danger today? Another example of Reformed folk failing to fight the real enemies.
Ironically, I think this post is indicative of an "all or nothing" approach. Either he can be criticized wholly or not criticized at all. Nobody has called Phillips a cult leader except you. Physician heal thyself and learn a little nuance young man.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I have seen a few derogatory remarks made against Phillips and initially took issue with that. I am trying to make critiques of Phillips without stereotyping or name calling.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Look at the horrors of "trying to go back to the good ole days." Look what it does to your children:



The horror. They aren't covered with spikes, chains, or gothic face paint. I don't know. I look at ladies acting like ladies (and not implying anything to the contrary on anyone here) and think, "Without copying this, this might not be a bad idea."
 

MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
All I know 'bout the guy is I like his catalog. Some of the stuff vision forum sells is pretty cool. ;) :book2: :D
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
All I know 'bout the guy is I like his catalog. Some of the stuff vision forum sells is pretty cool. ;) :book2: :D
His catalogue did the following to me:

1) Rescued me from the Republican Party.
2) Introduced me to Van Til, Bahnsen, Rushdoony.
3) Introduced me to Roy Moore
4) Already a history major, it opened a new window of American history to me.
 

MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I think some of the toys they sell are cool. It's not to easy to find a slingshot anywhere these days.;) Alot of folks out there would be appaled at some of the stuff. They'd be saying, "You shouldn't give that kind of stuff to your son. It promotes aggression!"
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I think some of the toys they sell are cool. It's not to easy to find a slingshot anywhere these days.;) Alot of folks out there would be appaled at some of the stuff. They'd be saying, "You shouldn't give that kind of stuff to your son. It promotes aggression!"
I wanted to buy one of the crossbows to shoot at my roomate (sorry, agression). But never got around to it.
 

Ivan

Pastor
His catalogue did the following to me:

1) Rescued me from the Republican Party.
2) Introduced me to Van Til, Bahnsen, Rushdoony.
3) Introduced me to Roy Moore
4) Already a history major, it opened a new window of American history to me.
Well, Jacob, that is simply AWESOME!
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
I have seen a few derogatory remarks made against Phillips and initially took issue with that. I am trying to make critiques of Phillips without stereotyping or name calling.
Except calling people "stupid" who might lack discernment. I do hope that you change your attitude about the world outside of a 1 foot radius from your person if you aspire to become an Officer in the Church some day.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Except calling people "stupid" who might lack discernment. I do hope that you change your attitude about the world outside of a 1 foot radius from your person if you aspire to become an Officer in the Church some day.
Whatever. And I don't have any present intention of going into the ministry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top