Dominion, creation and angels

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timfost

Puritan Board Senior
Hi again,

Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.

Thoughts?
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Hi again,

Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.

Thoughts?
1 Cor 5 -6 says we will judge angels.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Would the laws of logic, mathematics, etc. be visible or invisible creation? I am hesitant to force the bible on a Platonic grid with a dialectic between kosmos noetos and the kosmos aisthetos
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Hi again,

Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.

Thoughts?
My understanding would be that Adam was given rule over the natural created order here upon the Earth. He was given the task of naming the animals, and God stated that his rule would be over those upon the Earth alone it would seem.
 

timfost

Puritan Board Senior
Would the laws of logic, mathematics, etc. be visible or invisible creation? I am hesitant to force the bible on a Platonic grid with a dialectic between kosmos noetos and the kosmos aisthetos
Perhaps my terminology is incorrect, but concepts by definition are intangible. The invisible I'm speaking about is the "spiritual" realm that Paul often refers to as "principalities" (see Col. 1:16).

Satan was first created good and fell, and his sin did not bring about a curse on creation. Yet the earth was cursed for the sake of man-- all visible elements being affected by the curse brought about by man's sin. Yet, if the angels were under man's dominion, his sin should have brought about a curse on them. Since it did not, it seems that man's dominion is limited to the visible creation.

Thoughts?
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Perhaps my terminology is incorrect, but concepts by definition are intangible. The invisible I'm speaking about is the "spiritual" realm that Paul often refers to as "principalities" (see Col. 1:16).

Satan was first created good and fell, and his sin did not bring about a curse on creation. Yet the earth was cursed for the sake of man-- all visible elements being affected by the curse brought about by man's sin. Yet, if the angels were under man's dominion, his sin should have brought about a curse on them. Since it did not, it seems that man's dominion is limited to the visible creation.

Thoughts?
We have authority over unclean spirits (which I don't believe are fallen angels)
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
But we will judge angels as those glorified. I don't think this teaches us much about the state of angels relating to the dominion of man on this side of the resurrection.
True, and right now we are told not to speak or revile against fallen archons, as Jude quoted from the Assumption of Moses. But in the new creation we will judge the rebellious beney elohim.
 

py3ak

They're stalling and plotting against me
Staff member
Hi again,

Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.

Thoughts?
In Christ, humanity has been exalted above the invisible realm. Outside of Christ is a different story.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Perhaps my terminology is incorrect, but concepts by definition are intangible. The invisible I'm speaking about is the "spiritual" realm that Paul often refers to as "principalities" (see Col. 1:16).

Satan was first created good and fell, and his sin did not bring about a curse on creation. Yet the earth was cursed for the sake of man-- all visible elements being affected by the curse brought about by man's sin. Yet, if the angels were under man's dominion, his sin should have brought about a curse on them. Since it did not, it seems that man's dominion is limited to the visible creation.

Thoughts?
Mankind was given reign over this created earth and all who dwell upon it, but Satan/demons/angels are of the spiritual realm, and thus are under the reign of God Himself.
 
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py3ak

They're stalling and plotting against me
Staff member
Does this exultation equal dominion now? If so, what does this look like practically?
I don't know that I would use the term "dominion" -- Christ is reigning, and we enjoy the benefits of that. That includes freedom from fear of principalities and powers, not excluding death and the devil, and receiving the ministrations of angels who are sent by our exalted head.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Demons are the angels that fell with Satan in his fall.
Probably not. The Bible doesn't really tell us *when* the angels fell. Genesis 6 is a pretty good indicator, but Scripture really doesn't say anyting about a primordial fall of other "angels.". The "fallen angels" (or whatever we want to call them) are archons, kosmokratoras, thronoi--fairly impressive beings.

Demons are just unclean spirits.

In any case, angel is a functional term, not an ontological one. It just means messenger.
 

timfost

Puritan Board Senior
The Bible really doesn't say. They aren't the angels who fornicated per Genesis 6, since those are currently imprisoned in Tartarus. Nor do they seem like the archons or the thronoi against whom we war.
Would you agree that whatever they are, they were first created good and then fell?
 

G

Puritan Board Senior
Hi again,

Man was created to exercise dominion over creation. Is this dominion limited to the visible creation or also the invisible? In other words, are men to have dominion over angels? Heb. 2 seems to suggest we are of lower rank than angels which would seem to suggest that man's dominion is over the visible creation.

Thoughts?
Tim,

I think you are on the right track with the verse. Angels, as a whole creature group, seem to be a group that God has given a higher place than Man (specifically fallen man). Hence when Christ became a man he humbled himself to a lower rank than the Angels (a.k.a. the God-Man).

However; though Christ was made lower (Hebrews 2)..that was only temporary. So therefore when all is fulfilled, those in Christ will be brought higher than the angels (already not yet likely applies as well since currently a Christian's Identify is in Christ) 2 Timothy 2:12:

12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;


P.S. Pre-Fall...I do not have an answer and am content in that.

:2cents:
 

timfost

Puritan Board Senior
Tim,

I think you are on the right track with the verse. Angels, as a whole creature group, seem to be a group that God has given a higher place than Man (specifically fallen man). Hence when Christ became a man he humbled himself to a lower rank than the Angels (a.k.a. the God-Man).

However; though Christ was made lower (Hebrews 2)..that was only temporary. So therefore when all is fulfilled, those in Christ will be brought higher than the angels (already not yet likely applies as well since currently a Christian's Identify is in Christ) 2 Timothy 2:12:

12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;


P.S. Pre-Fall...I do not have an answer and am content in that.

:2cents:
Yes, I definitely see how glorified man will be in a higher place than angels. However, it seems that man, him now in Christ, does not have dominion over that aspect of the creation. I don't see how he would have practically had dominion over angels even prior to the fall.
 

timfost

Puritan Board Senior
If we are talking about the archa, thronoi, etc., yes.
Regardless, whatever they were, they fell. It doesn't seem that man had dominion over them ever, which would support the physical/spiritual (visible/invisible) distinction in man's dominion.
 

G

Puritan Board Senior
Yes, I definitely see how glorified man will be in a higher place than angels. However, it seems that man, him now in Christ, does not have dominion over that aspect of the creation. I don't see how he would have practically had dominion over angels even prior to the fall.
I agree. We can only goes as far as the scriptures and the created things man had/has "Dominion" over were/are the things mentioned in Genesis 1-2. I do not believe angels are mentioned specifically in that account.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Regardless, whatever they were, they fell. It doesn't seem that man had dominion over them ever, which would support the physical/spiritual (visible/invisible) distinction in man's dominion.
Sure. If counties had territorial spirits (Prince of Persia, Greece, etc.), then it logically stands to reason that the denizens of those countries wouldn't be in dominion over the territorial spirit.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Probably not. The Bible doesn't really tell us *when* the angels fell. Genesis 6 is a pretty good indicator, but Scripture really doesn't say anyting about a primordial fall of other "angels.". The "fallen angels" (or whatever we want to call them) are archons, kosmokratoras, thronoi--fairly impressive beings.

Demons are just unclean spirits.

In any case, angel is a functional term, not an ontological one. It just means messenger.
Where in the scriptures are they labeled with those terms though?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Mankind was given to reign over the physical/material created things here upon the earth, while God reign includes the spiritual/immaterial created things.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
How could we exercise authority over an invisible realm? And the ones revealed in scripture it seems like men are prone to fear or worship.
 
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