Does the Abrahamic Covenant have double fulfillment?

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VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Does the Abrahamic Covenant have double fulfillment?

I believe the Abrahamic Cov was fulfilled in the days of Joshua 21:44 and it was strickly to do with the inheritance of the land to Abraham's descendants. But according to New Testament it foreshadowed the Gov of Grace in which Abraham and the elect of israel where recipients of (heb 11). In other words Abraham and elect of Israel knew that the Abrahamic cov pointed to something greater, that is Christ.

Does anyone agree? or would you see the Abrahamic cov as the Cov of Grace, or Abrahamic Cov as fufilled in the the Gov of Grace.

Expecting some disagreement here (especially paedobaptist) but it should be interesting to find out how wrong or right I am.

VanVos
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
It's better to look at the Abrahamic covenant as one administration of the covenant of grace. Through it, God gave us types and shadows (i.e. the land, the people, Isaac, etc.) to teach us about the deeper realities of the covenant of grace as revealed and fulfilled in the "new" covenant. But people were saved in the Abrahamic covenant the same way they are in the new covenant, by faith in Christ.
 

Bladestunner316

Puritan Board Doctor
Paul says,

from epistle to the churchs of Galatia


Two Covenants
(1) 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are the[4] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband."[5]


28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."[6] 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


Maybe this will help



:) Blade
 

Dan....

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:16e74256ed]
Puritan Sailor wrote:

It's better to look at the Abrahamic covenant as one administration of the covenant of grace. Through it, God gave us types and shadows (i.e. the land, the people, Isaac, etc.) to teach us about the deeper realities of the covenant of grace as revealed and fulfilled in the "new" covenant. But people were saved in the Abrahamic covenant the same way they are in the new covenant, by faith in Christ.
[/quote:16e74256ed]

:ditto: :thumbup::thumbup:

(And if a Baptist and a Presbyterian agree, then we must be on to something...:banana::banana: )

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by Dan....]
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
[quote:1ad74caec1][i:1ad74caec1]Originally posted by Dan....[/i:1ad74caec1]

:ditto: :thumbup::thumbup:

(And if a Baptist and a Presbyterian agree, then we must be on to something...:banana::banana: )
[/quote:1ad74caec1]:handshake: :bs2:
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
I still think in light of Josuha 21:44 we have it's fulfillment, but I would agree the Abrahamic cov pointed to the cov of grace (Gal 3) so in that way it was administration of that covenant. But the Abrahamic cov historically still seems to me to have it's fulfillment in Joshua 21:44. Maybe this is new way of understanding the Abrahamic Cov? Does anyone, or do you know of anyone to have the same view.
 

kceaster

Puritan Board Junior
Pastor Goundry...

As you have seen me write in other places (or perhaps you haven't), I would argue that the fulfillment in Joshua is not a full picture. Were Abraham's descendents as numerous as the stars? If not, what we see is a fulfillment of the covenant renewed in Moab.

On another point, why would Abraham look beyond what God promised? In other words,, why would Abraham look for a different city? If God promised him merely an earthly city and name for himself, why would the writer of Hebrews tell us that Abraham knew differently?

In Christ,

KC
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Thanks for your thoughts. Here's some other things I think need to be considered. Deut 1:10 says they had multiplied as the stars of heaven. Also I agree that he looked to a city made without hands based upon the Abrahamic cov. because he knew it pointed to the Cov. of Grace and Christ. But I am more than open for correction on this issue.

God Bless VanVos:)
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
Van Vos:

I think that both you and Patrick are right. As Patrick mentioned, the Abrahamic Covenant was an adminstration of the Covenant of Grace.

I think that the Bible teaches that it is more, too, and would agree with you on that point. The Abrahamic Covenant has more than two fulfillments.

It is first fulfilled in God's provision of the land to Israel. This fulfillment is the most basic sense of the text. BTW, I agree with you that in a sense Israel was made a numerous as the stars. This was also mentioned expressly in David's punishment for the census.

The Covenant of Abraham (and the conquests following) and the great work God did in providing Israel with the land is fulfilled typologically in the work of Jesus. All of the great events of the OT prefigure some NT reality or realities. The flood of Noah, for example, prefigured the baptism wich now save us. 1 Peter 3:21. The Exodus prefigures Jesus' work as the new Israel is another example.

The Covenant of Abraham (and the conquests following) similarly is fulfilled in individuals as they wage the struggle against their interior sin through the process of sanctification.

The Covenant of Abraham is also being fulfilled eschataologically with the expansion of Christendom.

The Covenant of Abraham will be fulfilled in a final sense with the Second Coming. The land of Canaan is pretty clearly a type of heaven, the lists of Israelites are types of the Book of Life (and church membership rolls), etc.

So, the Covenant of Abhraham prefigures many things and in fulfilled in many ways. Many of the fulfillments are typological. The most basic, or literal, fulfillment would be the conquest of Canaan.

Scott
 

kceaster

Puritan Board Junior
Pastor Goundry...

[quote:c733f4f772][i:c733f4f772]Originally posted by VanVos[/i:c733f4f772]
Thanks for your thoughts. Here's some other things I think need to be considered. Deut 1:10 says they had multiplied as the stars of heaven. Also I agree that he looked to a city made without hands based upon the Abrahamic cov. because he knew it pointed to the Cov. of Grace and Christ. But I am more than open for correction on this issue.

God Bless VanVos:) [/quote:c733f4f772]

But the very next verse in Deut. 1 promises or claims a promise of many more than that. I don't know about you, but a million and a half, is not the number of the stars, nor is it the quantity of grains of sand on the beach.

The fact is, God is still producing sons of Abraham. And we know that these sons are of the faith. Now, if the fulfillment of Joshua included the redemption of the elect, perhaps we could say that Abraham was, at that time, all fulfilled. But since the true fulfillment of Abraham is Christ, then I don't think the Joshua passage shows it.

In Christ,

KC
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
KC:

It seems to me that the OT does envisage the promise being fulfilled, at least in an initial sense, in Israel. Another passage relates to David's census:


[quote:e0078b2675]
David did not take the number of the men twenty years old or less, because the LORD had promised to make Israel as numerous as the stars in the sky. 1 Chron. 27:23
[/quote:e0078b2675]

David's taking the census showed his lack of faith in God's promise regarding being as numerous as the stars of the heavens.

Scott
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
If all that God promises Abraham in His covenant was a plot of land, then are are most decieved having Abraham as our father.

The types and shadows of Canaan as our rest, the Sabbatical rest, and consummated in Davidic rest under the man after God's own heart should help us see the types and shadows as transitory expressions of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise in Christ.

I think Calvin is good here.

"If Abraham beleived that land, seed and blessing were the fulfillment of the promise of God, then he is more stupid than a block of wood."

I would agree.

Mary was a good theologian - Luke 1:54-55 He has helped His servant Israel, In remembrance of His mercy, 55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and to his seed forever."

So was Zechariah - Luke 1:72-75 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: 74 To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

One of the larger problems of the dispensational "fulfillment" idea surrounding Joshua is the rest of OT history. The book of Judges demosntrates an apologetic for the monarchy based on an unfulfilled task given to the army under Joshua. Rest was short lived.

It would also negate Genesis 3:15, and place it as being an earthly promise finished at that point.

To have different covenants at different times is to have different ways of one being saved.
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Please understand what I'm saying here, Abraham did see more than the Land Promise (he saw the gospel) but my question was did he in Gen 14-17 see two covenants or just the one. That is was the Abrahamic Cov. and Cov of Grace two seperate covenants in his eyes or did he see as the same. I don't think seeing two cov here necessarily gives you two ways to salvation. It just the Abrahamic Cov hsitorically is typological of the Cov. Grace i.e. the land of Promise is a type of heaven

By the way I love your teachings and this website:)

VanVos

[Edited on 5-8-2004 by VanVos]
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
Dear Pastor Gundry,

I am very glad you are enjoying the site. I love everyone's contribution here. I look forward to seeing more input from you as well. Welcome!

I believe Abraham saw one covenant here. As did Mary and Zechariah in the NT, as did Paul in Galatians, and Hebrews. One way to be saved. One way for all men. He beleived in Christ, saw His day, and even understood the resurrection (as typified in Isaac and undersstood as Hebrews comments).

These may also be of help:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/McMahonInternalizationLaw.htm

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/McMahonGodToYouAndToYourChildren.htm
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
I agree with most of what people are saying here, but allow me jump off into deep end for a second here. I do believe that the was multiple covenants of the single promise (just as Paul and NT writers saw it), but it's like the sacrifices under the Mosaic covenant they were ceremonially efficacious but they pointed to something greater Heb 9:13-14. Also the Noachic covenant was made to insure the continuation of man kind but it also pointed something greater, the redemption of the elect. Could this not also be the case with Abrahamic Cov.


VanVos:)

[Edited on 5-9-2004 by VanVos]
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
I was refering to Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: That is God did accept those sacrifice as far as sanctifing the people Israel in the external sense, but of course only Christ that saves us from our sins Hebrews 9:14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Just got finished listening to Cov of Works lesson 5 awesome

Favorite line "God loves Himself more than he loves man" I've always thought that, but it was nice to hear someone teach it.

VanVos:)

[Edited on 5-9-2004 by VanVos]
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
I'm glad that was helpful! I find the CoW to be the most neglected and distorted of theological Christian teaching. without understanding it, one often messes up total Depravity, then God's character, then the Law, then Christ's sacrifice, etc. etc. It turns into a big snowball.
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Just couple more thougts on this issue.

1. I believe that in John 8:58 Jesus is saying that He is the eternal God who is our Federal head under the Cov of Grace in contrast to the Jews (Pharisees of that day) who clamied to have Abraham as their federal head under the Abrahamic Cov.

2. I think that the elect of God understood the christology in the various covenants 1 Peter 1:10 (or the administrations of the Cov of Grace) but the gentile world did not eph 2:12, and the reprobate Jews rejected it Heb 4:2.

VanVos:)

[Edited on 5-10-2004 by VanVos]
 

Scott

Puritan Board Graduate
The Old Testament sacrifices were efficacious in a sacramental way and were along the same order as New Testament sacraments. The people of the Old Covenant really and truly fed on Christ through their sacraments, just as we do today. The Reformers used this position in debates with Catholics, who taught that OT sacrifices were not efficacious and were mere figures of NT sacraments. Turretin discusses this point in his Institutes of Elenctic Theology.

One of the passages Turretin and other Reformers used to advance the notion that Old Testament sacraments were effectual to salvation (contra Roman Catholics) was 1 Cor. 10:1-4:

[quote:54d98044d0]
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
[/quote:54d98044d0]

Note that that by drinking from the rock (which Turretin rightly saw as a sacrament, like manna, the sacrifices, etc.) the OT saints "ate the same spiritual food and the same spiritual drink (as us)" which was "Christ."

Scott
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
I would agree with that. I believe the elect used all those things as means of grace by coming to God in faith, as it is with us today with communion. I also think it served a ceremonial purpose for ethinic israel in sanctifying of the flesh Heb 9:13.

Good stuff Paul VanVos
 

BroBret

Inactive User
Introduction To VanVos

Dear VanVos:


While reading the posts in this thread, I noticed that you are a minister in Coconut Creek and are Calvinist at heart. :amen:

Anyway, I pastor Cornerstone Community Baptist Church in Deerfield Beach, FL ( www.ccbcfl.org ). Would love to meet you and get to know you more by e-mail, and in person eventually :handshake: Feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] if you are interested.

Brother Bret Lovitz
 

Wannabee

Obi Wan Kenobi
You guys mind another perspective? It's funny, I actually find myself agreeing with KC in much of this. Now that doesn't happen much.[quote:a5817fc578]I still think in light of Josuha 21:44 we have it's fulfillment[/quote:a5817fc578]It's clear in Judges 2:1-6 that while God gave them the land and they possessed it in the sense that they dwelt there, they did not claim the promise as they were instructed. Therefore this portion of the Abrahamic Covenant is yet to be fulfilled.
[quote:a5817fc578]The Covenant of Abraham is also being fulfilled eschataologically with the expansion of Christendom.[/quote:a5817fc578]Is true Christianity being expanded. Honestly I think we're fooling ourselves if we really believe this. God is smeared everywhere we look. Easy believism and sensational religion is pervading our culture, with true slaves of Christ becoming fewer and further between. I mean no offense, but to claim that Christianity is making any true headway in this world reflects a Polly Anna mentality I think. [quote:a5817fc578]The Covenant of Abraham will be fulfilled in a final sense with the Second Coming. The land of Canaan is pretty clearly a type of heaven, the lists of Israelites are types of the Book of Life (and church membership rolls), etc.

So, the Covenant of Abhraham prefigures many things and in fulfilled in many ways. Many of the fulfillments are typological. The most basic, or literal, fulfillment would be the conquest of Canaan.[/quote:a5817fc578]What text can you base this on. To claim types where they are not clearly given is mere speculation. It might be fun, but can hardly be claimed as verifiable truth as revealed by God.[quote:a5817fc578]One of the larger problems of the dispensational "fulfillment" idea surrounding Joshua is the rest of OT history. The book of Judges demosntrates an apologetic for the monarchy based on an unfulfilled task given to the army under Joshua. Rest was short lived. [/quote:a5817fc578]Well said (How's that from a Dispensational?).[quote:a5817fc578]I find the CoW to be the most neglected and distorted of theological Christian teaching. without understanding it, one often messes up total Depravity, then God's character, then the Law, then Christ's sacrifice, etc. etc. It turns into a big snowball.[/quote:a5817fc578]How so? Maybe this needs a separate thread. Those of you who've debated with me know I don't accept the assertion that there is a CoW. I can't see how this can affect my view of total depravity.

I don't see how the AC can be more than one covenant. It has several aspects, or facets, but is one covenant I think.

I also assert that the Mosaic Covenant is more a covenant of judgment. God gave the Israelites the law, and promised blessing in return. If they didn't obey God promised punishment. They obviously couldn't live up to their side of the bargain, so God lived up to His by punishing them (Babylonian Exile). This showed man just how desparate his plight was. There was nothing he could do to make himself righteous before God. He was/is completely dependent on God to do it all. Any obedience on our part is a manifestation of God's grace in our lives.

Well, that ought to get some response. :D
 

VanVos

Puritan Board Sophomore
Some other thoughts

Having looked at the replies I am now convinced that Abrahamic covenant is part of the covenant of Grace because it was through the giving of the land to the offspring of Abraham that prepared Matt 1:1-17 the way for the promise seed, which is Christ Gal 3:16, to come from his line. But in some ways it does foreshadow the Cov. of Grace in the New Covenant because it acts as pledged that God will keep his promises to the elect Heb 6:10-19. Just as Abraham inherited the land the elect will inherit the earth Matt 5:5.

Also here's an article that I agree with on many points http://www.trinity-baptist-church.com/art_abrcov.htm

VanVos
 
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