Does my church follow the RP?

[raderag]

I know that we claim to.

We follow the Church Calendar
We use liturgy (some from the common book of prayer).
We recite creeds.
Psalter.
Public responsive reading of scripture.
We have a choir (in the back), sometimes have solos, the Pastor 'leads' all the litugy (and the music) from the front.
announcements are at the end.
We do a passing of the peace in the middle.
Weekly Lords supper.
Confession of sin.

We have a "covenantal renewal" style of worship.
Here is our liturgy for last week.

http://www.redeemerpres.org/docs/thedivineservice/TheDivineService6.20.04.PDF

 

[wsw201]

The Church Calendar would not be considered RP. And in fact would be an exception to the Standards. But then again I don't think many PCA churches pay much attention to this. Those churches that use the Church Calendar, or have gone to a contemporary style of worship, claim that WCF 21 is ambiguous and pay no attention to the Directory of Worship.

What is a "Covenant Renewal" style of service? I have never heard of this.

 

[raderag]

[quote:c5e84de967][i:c5e84de967]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:c5e84de967]
The Church Calendar would not be considered RP. And in fact would be an exception to the Standards. But then again I don't think many PCA churches pay much attention to this. Those churches that use the Church Calendar, or have gone to a contemporary style of worship, claim that WCF 21 is ambiguous and pay no attention to the Directory of Worship.
[/quote:c5e84de967]
I have heard that Calvin used the Calendar to some extent. I have heard a pretty good defense for this, but that was my main concern.

[quote:c5e84de967]
What is a "Covenant Renewal" style of service? I have never heard of this. [/quote:c5e84de967]

I would say that it focus more on what worship should be than what it shouldn't (i.e. weekly Lord's Supper). It has a heavy focus on the pattern of worship in Scripture. It generally embraces the RP also. I don't know much about the theory behind it, but perhaps some here do. Here is an article:

http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0%2C%2CPTID23682|CHID125043|CIID1670512%2C00.html

[Edited on 6-24-2004 by raderag]

[Edited on 6-24-2004 by raderag]

 

[py3ak]

[quote:1661b79578]
We do a passing of the peace in the middle.
[/quote:1661b79578]

What is this?
I would not think that a choir and solos are included in the RP.

Wayne,

Two sincere questions. Is that pastor's decision of what to preach on a matter of the RP? One pastor uses the church calendar --another uses the book of Romans. What's the difference? Second, what about OT warrant for an ecclesiastical calendar? Paul still had a place in his heart for Pentecost in the book of Acts....

 

[Scott]

Yes, it follows the RP. The church calendar is just a way to order the year in terms of preaching themes and congregational reflection. A random or ad hoc way of odering is not any more in conformity with the RP than an ecclesiastically inherited one.

Some Puritans were opposed to holidays, and some of their reasons were very good for this (for example holidays had come to be celebrated like Mardi Gras is today - debauchery). However, it is hard to say that ministers should not order preaching topics according to an ecclesiastical calendar, as if a minister should be forbidden from preaching from Matthew 1 simply because it is Christmas season.

I am more distressed that preaching themes tend to be ordered according to a secular calendar - Mother's Day, Father's Day, etc. but Lent is ignored.

 

[raderag]

[quote:bef82e2956][i:bef82e2956]Originally posted by py3ak[/i:bef82e2956]
[quote:bef82e2956]
We do a passing of the peace in the middle.
[/quote:bef82e2956]

What is this?
[/quote:bef82e2956]


Minister: The peace of the Lord be always with you!
People: And also with you!
Minister: Let us offer one another a sign of peace.
Members of the congregation greet one another with a sign of friendship such as the ancient words which the church has
used over the centuries, "The peace of Christ be with you," and the response, "And also with you."

 

[wsw201]

[quote:03bb325bb5][i:03bb325bb5]Originally posted by py3ak[/i:03bb325bb5]
[quote:03bb325bb5]
We do a passing of the peace in the middle.
[/quote:03bb325bb5]

What is this?
I would not think that a choir and solos are included in the RP.

Wayne,

Two sincere questions. Is that pastor's decision of what to preach on a matter of the RP? One pastor uses the church calendar --another uses the book of Romans. What's the difference? Second, what about OT warrant for an ecclesiastical calendar? Paul still had a place in his heart for Pentecost in the book of Acts.... [/quote:03bb325bb5]

As far as what the Minister preaches, that is left up to him as long as he dosn't go crazy. The order of Worship and when services will be is the responsibility of the Session in the PCA. The primary issue regarding the Church Calendar has to do more with Worship services on days other than the Lord's Day. Many churches today will have special worship services for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Christmas Eve, etc. In fact in the PCUSA, many churches have been having services for Ash Wednesday (ashes on the forehead) and recognize the Lenton season and Holy Week and will have special services during these periods. One point regarding Paul, the first century church was in transition from the administration of the old covenant to the administration of the new covenant. Observing the various festivals in Jerusalem were no longer obligatory for Christians. I believe we had a long thread on the issue of Holy Days that you might want to check out for further details.

 

[Scott]

Wayne:

But wouldn't you agree that there is no violation of the RPW with these extra services so long as the services themselves stay within the prescribed elements of worship? If a church wants to have a Maundy Thursday service and simply has a service involving, the preaching of the Word (on a thematic topic), singing of psalms, and perhaps adminstration of the Lord's Supper.

Calvin said he wished we had services every day.

Scott

 

[raderag]

[quote:c34501ec9b][i:c34501ec9b]Originally posted by Scott[/i:c34501ec9b]
Wayne:

But wouldn't you agree that there is no violation of the RPW with these extra services so long as the services themselves stay within the prescribed elements of worship? If a church wants to have a Maundy Thursday service and simply has a service involving, the preaching of the Word (on a thematic topic), singing of psalms, and perhaps adminstration of the Lord's Supper.

Calvin said he wished we had services every day.

Scott [/quote:c34501ec9b]

Scott, you bring up a good point. Perhaps this worship would be more accepted in the "Continental" Reformed View than the Westminster one.

But, I don't know of anyone here that actually agrees with Westminster on the application of the RP(Exclusive Psalmity).

 

[raderag]

[quote:d17b213132][i:d17b213132]Originally posted by py3ak[/i:d17b213132]
[quote:d17b213132]
We do a passing of the peace in the middle.
[/quote:d17b213132]

What is this?
I would not think that a choir and solos are included in the RP.
[/quote:d17b213132]

Why?

 

[py3ak]

Brett,
[quote:00780d1b74]
I would not think that a choir and solos are included in the RP.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why?

[/quote:00780d1b74]

What is the warrant for them? The levitical choirs in II Chronicles are questionable, because of their association with the sacrifices. We are to glorify God "with one mind and one mouth" (Romans 15:6). I realize that the context is not discussing the order of service, but that principle is one we should express in our worship. How do we do so? By reciting in unison and singing together. By an "amen" at appropriate moments.

Now that you've explained the "passing of the peace" I'm not sure that that is warranted either.

Wayne,

What if someone followed the calendar without extra services? What if someone had a service but it was made clear that it was optional? Do you think that a mid-week prayer meeting (a song, an abbreviated sermon, an extended time of prayer with different participants) violates the regulative principle?


By the way, I thought it was pretty funny when I found out that for a while in the church, as a method of accomplishing the "holy kiss" while keeping it holy, they passed around a board that everyone kissed.

 

[wsw201]

[quote:7344044c1e][i:7344044c1e]Originally posted by Scott[/i:7344044c1e]
Wayne:

But wouldn't you agree that there is no violation of the RPW with these extra services so long as the services themselves stay within the prescribed elements of worship? If a church wants to have a Maundy Thursday service and simply has a service involving, the preaching of the Word (on a thematic topic), singing of psalms, and perhaps adminstration of the Lord's Supper.

Calvin said he wished we had services every day.

Scott [/quote:7344044c1e]

Brett makes a very good point. Those churches that subscribe to the Westminster Standards (primarily Presbyterians) have historically not endorsed worship services other than on the Lord's Day. There are a couple of good articles on the web about this; one by TE Andrew Webb and one by Samuel Miller.

Below is the link to the paper by Webb:

http://www.christianity.com/CC/article/0,,PTID23682|CHID125043|CIID1279404,00.html

Chapter 21 Sec 5 is the key section:

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] [b:7344044c1e]solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner[/b:7344044c1e].[26]

Most believe that this phrase is ambiguous and would allow for worship services other than the Lord's Day. But BCO chapter 62 explains this phrase.

Also in the original Directoty of the Publick Worship of God it states:

[b:7344044c1e]Touching Days and Places for Publick Worship.[/b:7344044c1e]

THERE is no day commanded in scripture to be kept holy under the gospel but the Lord's day, which is the Christian Sabbath.

Festival days, vulgarly called Holy-days, having no warrant in the word of God, are not to be continued.

Nevertheless, it is lawful and necessary, upon special emergent occasions, to separate a day or days for publick fasting or thanksgiving, as the several eminent and extraordinary dispensations of God's providence shall administer cause and opportunity to his people.

As no place is capable of any holiness, under pretence of whatsoever dedication or consecration; so neither is it subject to such pollution by any superstition formerly used, and now laid aside, as may render it unlawful or inconvenient for Christians to meet together therein for the publick worship of God. And therefore we hold it requisite, that the places of publick assembling for worship among us should be continued and employed to that use.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:adb70a0257][i:adb70a0257]Originally posted by Scott[/i:adb70a0257]
Wayne:

But wouldn't you agree that there is no violation of the RPW with these extra services so long as the services themselves stay within the prescribed elements of worship? If a church wants to have a Maundy Thursday service and simply has a service involving, the preaching of the Word (on a thematic topic), singing of psalms, and perhaps adminstration of the Lord's Supper.

Calvin said he wished we had services every day.

Scott [/quote:adb70a0257]

Scott,

It would be a violation since it would be the Church taking power to itself that it does not have. The Scriptures do not permit the Church to bind men's consciences to worship other than on the Lord's Day. To have a worship service of the church requires its members to attend (I know that almost everyone ignores this Biblical concept). Thus the additional services are a binding of men's consciences with the desires of men.

It is also a practical fact that the addition of "holy day" like services end up with the denigration of the Lord's Day. A simple example: families who never attend an evening Lord's Day service usually end up being the same ones who have a complete cow if the Christmas Eve service is cancelled.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:279e15ba1f][i:279e15ba1f]Originally posted by raderag[/i:279e15ba1f]
But, I don't know of anyone here that actually agrees with Westminster on the application of the RP(Exclusive Psalmity). [/quote:279e15ba1f]
There are a few of us here. Just do a search. There are a few threads where this aspect is discussed in-depth.

 

[yeutter]

You do not have to adhere to the regulative principle to think exclusive Psalter singing in the worship service proper is a good idea. I know some very High Church Anglicans that would advocate singing only those Psalms appointed for that day. They argue that hymn singing in the worship service proper is a relatively late novelty.

 

[wsw201]

[quote:ba939af3dc]
Wayne,

What if someone followed the calendar without extra services? What if someone had a service but it was made clear that it was optional? Do you think that a mid-week prayer meeting (a song, an abbreviated sermon, an extended time of prayer with different participants) violates the regulative principle?
[/quote:ba939af3dc]

Ruben,

I don't see a problem of following a certain theme in a ministers sermon. And the Church can have special occasions for extra services, ie; special days of fasting or thanksgiving. The problem has been when a church continually has worship services on days other than the Lord's Day, ie; Maundy Thursday, etc. As Fred noted, when the Church has a worship service, all are obliged to come. As far as prayer meetings, bible studies and such, I do not think they are violations of the RP.

For anyone who knows, I noticed a difference in the Directory of the Public Worship of God in the PCA BCO and the original for Westminster. Does anyone know the evolution of the changes? Were they from the old PCUS? Does the OPC hold to the original or have they changed it? What's the scoop!

 

[Scott]

I don't think that having services on days other than the Lord's Day violates the RPW and I don't think that members are obliged to attend those services outside the Lord's Day. In any event, in Acts we have precedent of daily worship, as Calvin wished. As I recall, the only reason Calvin gave for not having daily worship was logistics.

Scott

 

[wsw201]

[quote:6fabe12b78][i:6fabe12b78]Originally posted by Scott[/i:6fabe12b78]
I don't think that having services on days other than the Lord's Day violates the RPW and I don't think that members are obliged to attend those services outside the Lord's Day. In any event, in Acts we have precedent of daily worship, as Calvin wished. As I recall, the only reason Calvin gave for not having daily worship was logistics.

Scott [/quote:6fabe12b78]

The problem is Scott as PCA Elders we do not subscribe to Calvin or any other individual theologian, but the Westminster Standards. My feeling is that, as was previously noted, the continental churches (Duthch Reformed, etc.) followed Calvin, Turretin and others regarding this issue and Presbyterians and the Westminster Divines did not agree. Plus by saying that "other services" that are worship services are not obligatory for members runs into the problem that Fred mentioned about the fact that all worship services reguire attendance.

 

[Scott]

Wayne:

Where does the confession say that all worship services are obligatory?

BTW, I have attended Christmas Eve services at your church.

Scott

 

[wsw201]

[quote:b1134631cf][i:b1134631cf]Originally posted by Scott[/i:b1134631cf]
Wayne:

Where does the confession say that all worship services are obligatory?

BTW, I have attended Christmas Eve services at your church.

Scott [/quote:b1134631cf]

Chapter 21 WCF:

VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshiped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families [30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] [b:b1134631cf]so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or willfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by his Word or providence, calleth thereunto[/b:b1134631cf].[33]

27. John 4:21
28. Mal. 1:11; I Tim. 2:8
29. John 4:23-24
30. Jer. 10:25; Deut. 6:6-7; Job 1:5; II Sam. 6:18, 20
31. Matt. 6:11; see Job 1:5
32. Matt. 6:6; 16-18; Neh. 1:4-11; Dan. 9:3-4a
33. Isa. 56:6-7; Heb. 10:25; Psa. 84:1-12; 100:4; 122:1, Luke 4:16; Acts 2:42; 13:42, 44


I would say that unless you are providentially hindered you should be there.

I hope you enjoyed the service! We also have Maundy Thursday and a Tenebrae Service! But one man does not make a Session, so all I can do is all I can do. :bs2:

 

[Scott]

Thanks, Wayne. I see where you are coming from, although I think the "when God calls" language provides some discretion. If a church makes clear that attendance is discretionary, then I don't think it implies that God is placing a mandatory call on others. I don't know if that was the original understanding of the divines, although I think that this reading would be the understanding of those who ratified it in the PCA. The practice at that time would allow other services.

I will say it is ironic that that portion of the Confession you cited is supported by a proof text that is in the context of daily public worship. (Acts 2:42, which is in the context of vs. 46).