Does God hate the reprobate?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by Zenas, Dec 20, 2007.

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  1. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    I get asked this question somtimes and, frankly, I am confused myself. I have heard a range of answers from "Of course" to "Yes and no at the same time" to outright "Not at all". I am wondering what the saints here think for my own personal edification. I ask this simply because of some things I have seen said in the "Common Grace to Reprobates" thread.

    If you could, give your answer and the Scriptures to back up why. I honestly want to see an answer fleshed out if anyone has the time and inclination.

    :worms:
     
  2. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Turn to Jesus with the Rich young ruler... doesn't it say that Jesus loved him?


    I would love to hear an explanation of that.
     
  3. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    Your point is that the Rich Young Ruler was a reprobate, I assume...



    What is the definition of 'love' in the OP? That would be important info.
     
  4. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    KMK: It would be easier to assume that this rich young ruler later converted...but we have not that info.

    What'da'you think?
     
  5. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    We don't seem to have the info one way or the other so I don't think you can use this passage to prove anything in regards to God's feelings for elect/reprobate.
     
  6. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    He loved him, but He also hated him. That is above human reason. :think:
     
  7. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    :doh:
     
  8. JTDyck

    JTDyck Puritan Board Freshman

    For me this is a case of believing a difficult doctrine in spite of what I would "prefer" to believe. There are a couple of Scripture verses that come to mind that are quite clear:

    The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
    The verse "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" is not found in the Bible. There is a sense in which this statement is true when applied to a sinner saved by grace, but it is not true in an evangelistic sense because He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:23)

    On the Lord's love for the rich young ruler, see a very helpful article by B. B. Warfield called "The Emotional Life of our Lord".

    The wrath of God upon the ungodly ought also to be a solid part of our motivation in evangelism: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2 Cor. 5:11).

    All this is tempered by the understanding that it is only by the grace of God that I myself am saved; I fully deserve the wrath of God, but instead Christ took it for me upon the cross.

    For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? (1 Cor. 4:7)
     
  9. A5pointer

    A5pointer Puritan Board Sophomore

    How has Essau escaped this conversation?
     
  10. moral necessity

    moral necessity Puritan Board Junior

    "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." (Ps.5:4,5).
    His hatred of evildoers, however, is not like ours, for "his ways are not our ways". His hatred is not corrupted with sin. It is a pure, holy, and righteous hatred, which is something that we are nowhere close to fathoming or rightly execute, as we remain in our sin-corrupted state.
    Also, his "hatred" is perfectly balanced with his extending of kindness to the ungodly, as Luke records that he does. "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful." (Lk.6:35-36) The word "kindness" is the same word found to describe "love" in I Cor.13:4, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast."
    Therefore, in my opinion, God hates the wicked, but he is kind and loving towards them, as he sees fit to be, when he sees fit to be.
    That's all I have for now. Hope this helps your study.
     
  11. Pilgrim Standard

    Pilgrim Standard Puritan Board Sophomore

    :ditto:
     
  12. puritan lad

    puritan lad Puritan Board Freshman

    Psalm 5 as well as Esau in Romans 9 gives a good indication that God does have a hatred for the wicked. As John MacArthur explains, it isn't the malevolent form of hate that we humans are prone to, but it is a very real hate nonetheless.

    God in His holiness, cannot but hate sin. Modern expositors have sought to soften the blow by suggesting that "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin". However, that draws an unbiblical distinction between the sinner and his sin. What is there in a sinner, except for his sin? Certainly nothing to excite God's love.

    God's love is powerful, but it is also particular. Using God's "love" in evangelism is presumptuous at best, ie. "God loves you just the way you are".
     
  13. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Yes, the old line "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" is nonsensical (in the sens that it is meant), although He shows love to the wicked in this life, He clearly hates them - otherwise He would not send sinners to hell. Note He sends sinners to hell, not just sins.
     
  14. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    It would probably help in this discussion if you would stop and define what you mean by hate, especially when applying to the divine pathos.

    For example, we may speak of love as a tremendous longing in our guts that we must be with another because they complete us. This is movie love.

    God's love is unconditional so we must remove sentiment and emotion. God's love is electing love, it is motivated by something within the Godhead that we are not privy to. God sets his preference on a sinner and that preference is not determined by anything outside of the 'mind' of God. His purpose is to glorify himself and reveal his attributes to the world and to the angels.

    So to say 'God loves the elect' is redundant. It is just as redundant to ask "Does God hate the reprobate?"

    It's like asking, does God hold back setting His preference on one whom he has purposed not to set his preference upon. It makes no sense.

    Godly hate is the purposeful withholding of his preference or favor upon the sinner, leaving the sinner's rebellious march toward Hell undisturbed.

    Godly hate does no mean God hates someones guts and he hopes they rot in Hell through a sneer and clenched teeth. Remove the human emotion and sentiment.

    Of course there may be a higher and more pure form of emotion within the Godhead, the scriptures certainly reference God's emotions but we can't get our minds around such pathos. His ways are not our ways.

    So the answer is "Yes, God hates the rebrobate" but be careful how you picture Godly hate in your mind.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2007
  15. moral necessity

    moral necessity Puritan Board Junior

    For Bob Vigneault,

    Your quote is excellent!

    "So to say 'God loves the elect' is redundant. It is just as redundant to ask "Does God hate the reprobate?" It's like asking, does God hold back setting His preference on one whom has has purposed not to set his preference upon. It makes no sense. Godly hate is the purposeful withholding of his preference or favor upon the sinner, leaving the sinner's rebellious march toward Hell undisturbed."

    Good insight!
     
  16. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    This is not a new line: it goes back to Augustine in his exposition of Psalm 139. It is inadequate, certainly. I think Augustine would disagree with you in the statement that there is nothing in a sinner except his sin. The sinner is certainly evil: but in so far as he has existence, he is an evil good.
    As far as anything in the sinner exciting God's love, I think Hosea 14 has the answer to that: God loves because He chooses to, not because He "falls in love".
     
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