Does Calvinism make God "impersonal"?

[Eyedoc84]

What is corporate election?

1. God elected Christ
2. The church is Christ’s body, and also elect.
3. One becomes elect by joining oneself to the church by faith.

Flowers being a traditional southern baptist would “lock salvation in” at this point, but more classic Arminians would say one could also become unelect by rejecting faith and leaving the church.

There were strong seeds of corporate election sown by Arminius himself. One of the best modern treatments are found in Robert Shank’s two works Elect in the Son and Life in the Son (By “best” I mean one that Arminians rely on).

 

[Deleted member 11889]

1. God elected Christ
2. The church is Christ’s body, and also elect.
3. One becomes elect by joining oneself to the church by faith.

Sooo, salvation by works, with the work in this case being joining a church?

 

[Taylor]

What is corporate election?

It's this idea that God elects not individuals, but groups. So, when God says, "Jacob I loved; Esau I hated," he is talking about not the individuals Jacob and Esau, but the groups of people represented by each, namely, Israel and the rest of the world. What matters, then, is what group a sinner decides to be a part of. Again, the whole purpose here is to give people the idea that they are the masters of their fate.

 

[The Original Secession]

It's this idea that God elects not individuals, but groups. So, when God says, "Jacob I loved; Esau I hated," he is talking about not the individuals Jacob and Esau, but the groups of people represented by each, namely, Israel and the rest of the world. What matters, then, is what group a sinner decides to be a part of. Again, the whole purpose here is to give people the idea that they are the masters of their fate.

The only place I have ever heard of corporate election popping up is with FV... so I am intrigued by this. FV does make God incredibly impersonal though.

 

[Eyedoc84]

Sooo, salvation by works, with the work in this case being joining a church?

No it’s by faith, which brings you into THE church. But God doesn’t choose which particular individuals are in the church, He just chooses that those that ARE in the church, whoever they are that believe, are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

It’s like those that enter the ship (by faith) are guaranteed to reach the destination, so long as they don’t jump off in unbelief. You are elect by virtue of being on the chosen vessel. If you don’t make it, it’s not through any defect in the vessel, and it’s the only vessel that goes to that destination.

 

[Deleted member 11889]

No it’s by faith, which brings you into THE church. But God doesn’t choose which particular individuals are in the church, He just chooses that those that ARE in the church, whoever they are that believe, are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

It’s like those that enter the ship (by faith) are guaranteed to reach the destination, so long as they don’t jump off in unbelief. You are elect by virtue of being on the chosen vessel. If you don’t make it, it’s not through any defect in the vessel, and it’s the only vessel that goes to that destination.

Ok, so God has predestined the salvation of the church as a body, but it's up to you whether or not you choose to join the church - according to this viewpoint. Am I understanding it correctly now?

 

[Eyedoc84]

Ok, so God has predestined the salvation of the church as a body, but it's up to you whether or not you choose to join the church - according to this viewpoint. Am I understanding it correctly now?

Yep.

 

[pgwolv]

The reality is that no one knows how God relates to sin, while accomplishing his decree. Even if somebody is not a Calvinist, they still have to deal with the same issues. Even Berkhof recognized that God's relation to sin is a mysterious problem that we cannot comprehend.

This is my line of thought, too. The Provisionist's argument also comes down to what he accuses me of in separating God from sin in my theology: semantics. To me, his problem is greater, making God's actions contingent on human free will.

 

[Deleted member 11889]

This is my line of thought, too. The Provisionist's argument also comes down to what he accuses me of in separating God from sin in my theology: semantics. To me, his problem is greater, making God's actions contingent on human free will.

That's the ultimate problem with any Arminian/non-Calvinist views: carried to a logical end they make us God. I respect the problem they're addressing but it's the wrong answer to it.