"Do you consider your children to be Christians?"

[OPC'n]

My answer would be this: "I have no idea if they are truly God's child or ever will be. However, that is neither here nor there. What is important is what God has commanded that I do. God has commanded me as their parent to baptize them when they are born and raise them up learning about him and his commandments. I am to train them according to his word and teach them about salvation. Their salvation lies in his hands just as my salvation lies in God's hands and just as your salvation lies in God's hands. While they are under my supervision, I will correct their behavior to align with Scripture. If they make a profession of faith, then they can become a full member of the church and partake of the Lord's Supper. If at the age of 18 they refuse to make a profession of faith, then this becomes a matter of the church."

I would want the guidance of the church to help me and my husband (who doesn't exist but neither do my children lol) to help us decide what the next steps are.

 

[OPC'n]

Some context:

In the country where I serve and in other countries every citizen must have an identity card. And on that card a religion must be written. For children of Christian parents "Christian" is written.

I believe this leads to "Identity Card Christianity" without personal conversion.

This is a very strange law. What is the point?

 

[Nate]

My answer is similar to Sarah's. Although, as they grow and mature and exhibit behaviors and perform actions that comport with Christian behaviors and actions, and verbally express faith in Christ and sorrow for sin, then in charitable judgment I consider and call them Christians when they are still children.

An important action of husband and wife is to actively discuss this both between themselves and with their children.

 

[Pergamum]

This is a very strange law. What is the point?

To respect all the religions in the country. Serving your own religion is okay, but evangelizing other religions is frowned upon.

 

[GlorytoGod]

Here are the two definitions of Christian:

Relating to or professing Christianity or its teachings.

A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

I live in a community which is fairly typical of many communities in America where people are constantly professing to be Christians and getting baptized but yet are truly not Christians as defined by having been chosen by God and having the spirit within them.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I live in a community which is fairly typical of many communities in America where people are constantly professing to be Christians and getting baptized but yet are truly not Christians as defined by having been chosen by God and having the spirit within them.

That is a good point. I would say though, that no human knows who is chosen and has the Holy Spirit. From our perspective, we must simply rely on what is outwardly seen and professed.

So based upon this mainstream definition, a baptised child at the age of one who says "I am a Christian", should be called a Christian.

Maybe I'm wrong though brother.

 

[GlorytoGod]

That is a good point. I would say though, that no human knows who is chosen and has the Holy Spirit. From our perspective, we must simply rely on what is outwardly seen and professed.

So based upon this mainstream definition, a baptised child at the age of one who says "I am a Christian", should be called a Christian.

Maybe I'm wrong though brother.

I’ve been enjoying this board for a while and have never commented until my initial post on this thread today which was my inaugural post. I appreciate what I’ve learned from you all as brothers and sisters in Christ and will continue to learn from you all. Thank you for the many good posts.

 

[Parakaleo]

I’ve been enjoying this board for a while and have never commented until my initial post on this thread today which was my inaugural post. I appreciate what I’ve learned from you all as brothers and sisters in Christ and will continue to learn from you all. Thank you for the many good posts.

Very nice to have you. This is an outstanding attitude, brother. The Lord bless you for it.

For further study on this topic, I would commend this work on the the doctrine of the visible/invisible church distinction, found in Scripture.

Here's an excerpt:

It needs to be recognized that although God deals with the visible church as one church, as one people of God, the external administration of the church with the preaching of the word, the ordinances and discipline in the present and in the long run (e.g., after the final judgment, in the eternal state) only truly benefit the invisible church or the elect. While outward professors receive temporary benefits resulting from intellectual insights from the word, pressure to conform to God's law, the outward influence from a society of family-oriented, ethical people, etc., they receive greater damnation on the day of judgment for spurning the great light to which they were exposed under continual gospel preaching.

 

[Ben Zartman]

I would say: My children are being raised by Christians. But my definition of Christian is far narrower than that of many on this board. Albert Martin has a wonderful sermon: "What is a Christian?" that many would do well to listen to.
Spoiler: he is a Baptist.
Perg, since you must select one for the ID card, put "Christian," since that is the religion they are being taught. When the conundrum is discussed, you'll have a great opportunity to bring up the necessity of the New Birth.

 

[KMK]

So based upon this mainstream definition, a baptised child at the age of one who says "I am a Christian", should be called a Christian.

What kind of one year old can say, "I am a Christian?"

 

[Pergamum]

What kind of one year old can say, "I am a Christian?"

Psalm 22 :

Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

We use the label "Christian" because of Acts 11:26, "And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." Being disciples, our little children would be included as those who may be called Christian. Especially for paedobaptists, perhaps, since they have been baptized into membership in the visible church where disciples are discipled.

 

[Beezer]

Psalm 22 :

Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

I believe the meaning of these verses should be understood figuratively and do not intend to communicate that David literally trusted/hoped in God as his deliverer and sustainer while a babe nursing on the breasts of his mother. It's a beautiful expression meant to convey that David trusted in the Lord from his earliest days.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Brian,
Why is this statement by David, irrational? Why is it unreasonable to think an infant has the ability to trust God if God gives that trust?

 

[Jeri Tanner]

As well, these are in their truest sense the words of Christ himself, David being the type.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Brian:

You seem to be making a distinction without a difference. Why is this figurative if "David trusted in the Lord from his earliest days?"

Of course our children should be identified as Christian (they aren't Muslims, Jews, Hindi, "nones," etc.), even if you mean by that, as credo-baptists, only that they are being brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord by Christians who are encouraging them to trust in Christ alone.

I, of course, as a paedo-baptist, regard the children of my Baptist friends as much Christian as I would my own (mine have all grown up and made professions of faith), though such Baptist children have not received the sign and seal of admission into the visible church.

By virtue of their birth to believers, all such children, I believe, have an interest in the covenant of grace and a right to the sign and seal of it (by baptism, solemnly admitting them into the visible church), even if their parents do not bring them for baptism. I regard them as properly part of the Christian community, even if their parents don't, because I believe, with all my heart, that God says that they are.

If you were asking, Trevor, whether they are Christians from your perspective as a credo-baptist, my answer is "yes, particularly for purposes of religious identification to the civil government." But, in truth, I believe them to be Christians, as they are part of Christ's church, being taught the truth, and encouraged to love and trust Him who is our only Lord and Savior.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Beezer]

Scott & Allan,

Good questions and comments.

I suppose the point I wanted to make is the verses in Psalm 22 shouldn't be used as a proof text of sorts to support the notion that a one year old can personally declare "I am a Christian" as it appeared Perg was implying in response to Ryan's quote below.

The treatment and identification of that one year old as a Christian by his/her parents is one thing; the ability of that one-year old to self-identify as one is quite another. In this sense I meant to convey I don't think Psalm 22:9 should be taken so literally.

Does this make sense?

So based upon this mainstream definition, a baptised child at the age of one who says "I am a Christian", should be called a Christian.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

What kind of one year old can say, "I am a Christian?"

Lol, is it rare for a one year old to talk? Our son will be 2 tomorrow and he speaks clear full sentences.

 

[Beezer]

Lol, is it rare for a one year old to talk? Our son will be 2 tomorrow and he speaks clear full sentences.

Your boy sounds exceptionally bright to me! However, I only have my son to compare to. My poor guy seems to have inherited his father's smarts (j/k). Hahaha.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

I began talking, they say, at quite an early age and have not stopped since (my Dad used to playfully say)! We taught our children to self-identify as Christians as soon as we began teaching them anything, which was right away.

We also taught them that they needed to trust Christ alone and repent of their sins, over and again. I made all this quite clear in the recent discussion of why our children, and all of us, need to be converted, and why I don't presume anything but seek to embrace God's promises and to come to Christ myself (as He has commanded/invited in Matt. 11:28-30) and to urge all about me (certainly including my children) to do the same.

As Bruce said recently, we all need the gospel, and part of being a Christian is coming more and more to realize that. Children of believers are partakers of the covenant outwardly. The encouragement to us all is to be inwardly what we are outwardly by virtue of our baptism. For paedo-baptists, this encouragement applies not only to us and others who have professed faith, but to our children, who have been baptized because they, as the seed of the faithful, are properly part of the visible church (WCF 25.2).

Peace,
Alan

 

[Dachaser]

I


@Dachaser : I was going to respond, but Rev. Law has stated the issue so much better than I........

Within the physical body, the local churches, there are both saved and lost, but only those saved are to be seen as included under the NC now.

 

[Dachaser]

We must have language that can be used to distinguish between those who are outwardly and visibly part of the church (whom we hope are converted) and those who are elect and spiritually united to Christ (who really are converted). Without such language, how does a minister exhort those who are merely "called Jacob" to repent of their hypocrisy and be reconciled to God?

What do you call someone who calls Christ, "Lord" and does mighty works in his name? A Christian, I would hope. Yet, there will be many like this who will be told to depart from Christ on the last day.

There is the Church, as in both lost and saved assembling together, and just the saved in the true Church of Christ, Church of the Firstborn.

 

[Dachaser]

Here are the two definitions of Christian:

Relating to or professing Christianity or its teachings.

A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Neither definition though seems to fit the biblical definition given to us though.

 

[Dachaser]

Brian:

You seem to be making a distinction without a difference. Why is this figurative if "David trusted in the Lord from his earliest days?"

Of course our children should be identified as Christian (they aren't Muslims, Jews, Hindi, "nones," etc.), even if you mean by that, as credo-baptists, only that they are being brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord by Christians who are encouraging them to trust in Christ alone.

I, of course, as a paedo-baptist, regard the children of my Baptist friends as much Christian as I would my own (mine have all grown up and made professions of faith), though such Baptist children have not received the sign and seal of admission into the visible church.

By virtue of their birth to believers, all such children, I believe, have an interest in the covenant of grace and a right to the sign and seal of it (by baptism, solemnly admitting them into the visible church), even if their parents do not bring them for baptism. I regard them as properly part of the Christian community, even if their parents don't, because I believe, with all my heart, that God says that they are.

If you were asking, Trevor, whether they are Christians from your perspective as a credo-baptist, my answer is "yes, particularly for purposes of religious identification to the civil government." But, in truth, I believe them to be Christians, as they are part of Christ's church, being taught the truth, and encouraged to love and trust Him who is our only Lord and Savior.

Peace,
Alan

They would be come members of the one true Church at time of conversion, when they have received Jesus as their Lord, and then have the Holy Spirit in them.

 

[Gforce9]

Within the physical body, the local churches, there are both saved and lost, but only those saved are to be seen as included under the NC now.

This is a good summary of the difference between threshold Christianity and covenantal Christianity.

 

[jwithnell]

Are y'all drawing from 19th-century decisionalism theology? Yes, we are filled by the Holy Spirit -- how else would we be converted? This would be true of the infant, the gross sinner, the invalid, or the average Joe.

 

[Dachaser]

Are y'all drawing from 19th-century decisionalism theology? Yes, we are filled by the Holy Spirit -- how else would we be converted? This would be true of the infant, the gross sinner, the invalid, or the average Joe.

The infant cannot receive Jesus through faith in order to have the Holy Spirit, as he does not come through the water baptism being administered on the person, but by and through faith in Jesus Christ.
Would be drawing from the scriptures that salvation theology.

 

[Dachaser]

This is a good summary of the difference between threshold Christianity and covenantal Christianity.

When you say threshold, do you mean one must receive Jesus by faith as messiah/Lord first in order to be in the Church?
As Reformed baptists do see the distinction between the visible/invisible Church, and just who would be include din the NC itself, and still hold to Covenant theology.

 

[Cymro]

David I am confused as to what you are driving at. You wrote that,”an infant cannot receive Jesus by faith in order to have the Holy Spirit.” I point you to my previous post respecting John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Ghost in the womb before He could exercise faith! Regeneration by the Spirit is the prerogative of God whether in the womb or in an old people’s home! God’s sovereignty has no limitations. If you note Luke1:44 Elisabeth records that “ the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” Is not joy one of the first fruits of the Spirit?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Bryan,

The infant cannot receive Jesus through faith in order to have the Holy Spirit, as he does not come through the water baptism being administered on the person, but by and through faith in Jesus Christ.
Would be drawing from the scriptures that salvation theology.

Preposterous.

Who are u to say that God cannot regenerate and convert at whatever time He so pleases. Consider the elect infant dying in infancy. He must be converted, just like anyone else, under the preaching of the word and in response, accept, believe, agree, receive, repent, etc.