Do People Who Get Saved In the Tribulation receive the Holy Spirit

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Richard2YHWH said:
I'm sorry Bayou, but that is completely wrong. It has been and always will be Jesus Christ that structures the Bible narrative. It's always been about Him.

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Not sure how that disagrees with anything I said. Classically Reformed people have a broader understanding of eschatology. For evangelicals, eschatology means Left Behind. For the historic Reformed, eschatology means the unfolding of God's promises in history.
 
Richard2YHWH said:
I'm sorry Bayou, but that is completely wrong. It has been and always will be Jesus Christ that structures the Bible narrative. It's always been about Him.

​

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Bayou doesn't disagree with you. Sometimes we here have our heads a little too much in the clouds/academia.
He means that the gradual revealing (basically eschatology) of Christ through prophecy, shadows and types structures the Bible and it comes to fruition in the New (last days of Joel).
 
Richard2YHWH said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. NT saints can't. Not even in the tribulation (Mathew 24:24) If Eschatology precedes soteriology, then it's not about Jesus anymore.
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Eschatology is intimately intertwined with Christ—inseparable, even. Paul sums it up beautifully in his hymn:

Colossians 1:15–20 (CSB):

He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For everything was created by him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
and by him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church;
he is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that he might come to have
first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased to have
all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile
everything to himself,
whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace
through his blood, shed on the cross.
 
If Richard is arguing that OT saints could lose their salvation, that is an unbiblical and anti-confessional belief. See chapter 5 of the Canons of Dort. The preservation of the saints means the preservation of ALL saints, before, during and after the coming of Christ.
 
Did not Saul loose his salvation when the holy Spirit was taken from him? Read Eze 18:20-26. verse 21 in context says exactly that; " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Also Eze 33-11-16. If they cannot lose their salvation in the Old Testament then all the Jews would be saved. And we know that didn't happen. I believe Adam lost his salvation; that is until the blood (God made garments of skin).
Old Testament saints were not eternally secure Eze 18:24: “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die,” Here are some more verses on that: Sam. 7:15; 1 Sam. 16:14.
When an Old Testament saint died, he did not go into heaven like New Testament saints (2 Cor. 5:8), he went to Abraham’s bosom. “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried,” (Luke 16:22). They did not get out of Abraham’s bosom until after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:8-10). There are major differences between the Old and the New Testaments regarding salvation. Major changes occurred after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Even the disciples were not “converted” until after Christ arose (Lk. 22:32).
 
Yes, eschatology has always been intertwined with Christ, but it has never preceded it. Escapology has never structured the biblical narrative, Christ has. From beginning to end. But your right, escapology has always been intertwined with Christ, but so has a lot of other things; like covenant, eternity, or even repentance just to name a few.
 
Richard2YHWH said:
Did not Saul loose his salvation when the holy Spirit was taken from him? Read Eze 18:20-26. verse 21 in context says exactly that; " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Also Eze 33-11-16. If they cannot lose their salvation in the Old Testament then all the Jews would be saved. And we know that didn't happen. I believe Adam lost his salvation; that is until the blood (God made garments of skin).
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His having (and losing) the Holy Spirit could be glossed as a number of things: anointing for royal office or even tasting the mysteries of the heavenlies (Hebrews 6). If you are saying he lost his salvation, you are an Arminian.
 
Richard, there are zero historically Reformed ministers prior to the 20th century who taught Old Testament saints could lose their salvation. That is grave error, and a peculiar teaching of dispensationalism.
 
Perhaps it would be helpful to define what we mean when we say “lose salvation”.

Typically speaking, and what the reformed view holds to, is that a person who is regenerate, that is to say born of God, cannot “lose” their salvation. Those whom God saves and adopts into His family by the Holy Spirit, He keeps. Genuine Christians cannot be lost, no matter the dispensation of Old or New Testament.

It might be fair to say however that those who are visibly God’s people, in a sense certainly can “lose” the salvation of God by apostasy. Again, this is whether it be the Jews in the Old Testament or the visible church today. For example, as you point out Richard, those Jews who were brought out of the land of Egypt did not enter into God’s rest, though they saw the miracles and goodness of the Lord. They died in the wilderness because of their disobedience of unbelief (Hebrews 4).
 
Hello again @Richard2YHWH,

In your defence of Saul losing what he once supposedly had, you bring in two errors: that Saul was given the Holy Spirit unto salvation, as opposed to the Spirit simply giving a new heart to be kingly and able to govern so great a people. To substantiate this please note that he never gave evidence of a heart converted to follow Jehovah, while OFTEN giving evidence of an unregenerate heart, such as casually disregarding and disobeying the word of the LORD in the matter of offering a burnt offering – 1 Samuel 13 – and in 1 Samuel 15 where he spared Agag and the best of the livestock, both of which he’d been ordered to kill. And then he ordered the slaughter of the entire priesthood and their families dwelling in Nob, under Ahimelech (save Abiathar who escaped), 1 Samuel 22. On top of that he constantly sought to murder David, and at the end of his life consulted the witch who lived at Endor. He was never a godly man.

When you bring in Ezekiel 18:24,

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

please do not mistake “the righteous” spoken of for an elect soul; but, rather, there were many in the days of Jesus (for example) who were considered “the righteous” in the eyes of both themselves and of the people – that is the Pharisees, Scribes, etc – who nonetheless showed the true colors of their wickedness by murdering the Prince of life, and that without repentance, upon the preaching of Peter. Such “righteous” as Ezekiel spoke of were not true righteous, as the proverb shows: “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again” (Prov 24:16; cf. Mic 7:8; Dan 11:35). The LORD never loses His elect children.

It is proper hermeneutics and clear reasoning to interpret difficult passages by those that are plain, such as Jesus saying

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand (John 10:27,28,29).​

If you say, Richard, “Well, that is the NT and not the Old!”, you will be denying that the OT saints looked forward to the Messiah and His sacrifice they had been schooled to seek from the typical Levitical sacrifices. The elect remnant in the OT lived by faith in the promises of God, such as Abraham, and David – who saw the Messiah in spirit and spoke of Him often in the psalms, and Isaiah who saw the Messianic Servant, and His death in the place of sinners.

Please be aware that many of us here at Puritan Board have come out of Dispensationalism and learned the Reformed way of understanding the saving way of Jehovah God toward His chosen elect people throughout the church ages of the OT and the New. We can understand and appreciate the way you think, but we have come to the PB to be among like-minded brothers and sisters. We have learned to see that Psalm 65:4; Jer 50:20; Psalm 32:1,2 – and many other places – speak of God’s faithful keeping of His OT saints. Especially in Isaiah 53 the LORD shone His light on the suffering Messiah for all Israel to see, even before Messiah came in the flesh. Even in the OT days He was teaching His people that “the just shall live by his faith” (Habakkuk 2:4).

Welcome to PB, Richard, and to good doctrine, if you will have it.
 
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What "eschatology precedes soteriology" does not mean:

1) Eschatology is more important than soteriology.
2) One's views on the millennium take precedence over one’s faith in Christ.
3) One's salvation depends upon their eschatology.

What "eschatology precedes soteriology" does mean:

In terms of biblical revelation, God's consummation of all things in Christ (eschatology) 1) comes before his revelation of the way of salvation (soteriology) temporally and 2) is the stage on which the drama of our redemption is performed.
 
@Jerusalem Blade If you were to have me read one book that teaches reformed theology in contrast to dispensationalism; what would it be? I honestly don't consider myself a dispensationalist, mainly because I don't know much about it. But it seems that the things that I have said on here label me as such. I do read and study the word of God and believe I have a decent grasp on truth. But listening to most of you all, I don't. I have read the whole Bible twice in 5 years, and have read the new testament at least a dozen times. which tells you how fresh I am. I haven't read many other books other than the Bible. If I am as wrong in my thinking as most of you have said I am, then please tell me what to read to get a better understanding of why reformed is the only truth. I really want to know.
 
Richard, let me begin by saying that I am so pleased to read that you are open to reading about other views!
Many of us began where you are now - I, for one, get it! But we also took the first step that you are considering. I pray that you will find the journey as humbling, as meaningful, and as thrilling as I have. I would suggest:

Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?
BY: KEITH A. MATHISON

Also, this is quite good and available for free online:
frame-poythress.org

Understanding Dispensationalists

Vern Sheridan Poythress Westminster Theological Seminary Chestnut Hill, PA 19118 summer, 1986 To my wife Diane ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS This book is dedicated to my wife Diane, whom I thank for her encoura…
frame-poythress.org frame-poythress.org
 
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Guido. Interesting paper. When I think of the Holy Spirit giving me life I think of what my life was before. I was dead. I was a dead man walking. When the Holy Spirit indwelt me, He gave me life. Life "IN" Christ. Yes my salvation came because of Christ, but it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me of my unbelief (Sin). The born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit; meaning the Holy Spirit tabernacles. My body now is the home of the Holy Spirit, never to depart. Am I right? Didn't Jesus change things when He died on that cross in my place? Things aren't like they used to be before Jesus (OT) right? From the time that Jesus died on the cross and rose again to the end of the age, everyone who is born-again will be the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?
 
Richard2YHWH said:
Guido. Interesting paper. When I think of the Holy Spirit giving me life I think of what my life was before. I was dead. I was a dead man walking. When the Holy Spirit indwelt me, He gave me life. Life "IN" Christ. Yes my salvation came because of Christ, but it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me of my unbelief (Sin). The born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit; meaning the Holy Spirit tabernacles. My body now is the home of the Holy Spirit, never to depart. Am I right? Didn't Jesus change things when He died on that cross in my place? Things aren't like they used to be before Jesus (OT) right? From the time that Jesus died on the cross and rose again to the end of the age, everyone who is born-again will be the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?
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The question is initially two-fold: whether people had faith in the Old Testament, and whether people were dead in sin in the Old Testament and thus unable to believe of their own resources. The answer to both of those is "yes" -- see Hebrews 11 and Psalm 51. Then the question becomes: how were dead sinners able to believe in the Old Testament? The only possible answer to that is through the power of the Holy Spirit. He regenerated people in the Old Testament, just as he did in the New Testament. Both the new birth and faith are gifts of the Holy Spirit, period. It doesn't matter where you are in redemptive history.
 
Richard2YHWH said:
@Jerusalem Blade If you were to have me read one book that teaches reformed theology in contrast to dispensationalism; what would it be? I honestly don't consider myself a dispensationalist, mainly because I don't know much about it. But it seems that the things that I have said on here label me as such. I do read and study the word of God and believe I have a decent grasp on truth. But listening to most of you all, I don't. I have read the whole Bible twice in 5 years, and have read the new testament at least a dozen times. which tells you how fresh I am. I haven't read many other books other than the Bible. If I am as wrong in my thinking as most of you have said I am, then please tell me what to read to get a better understanding of why reformed is the only truth. I really want to know.
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I love your humility! I have learned over the years, that we can become very educated on our own beliefs, which is good, but it is a very honorable thing to become educated on beliefs that are not ours as well. I like to learn as much as I can because it is the truth I truly want. To me, this is a valuable part of critical thinking. Keep up the great work! You sound educated in your views, and passionate, now it sounds like a good idea to look at the confessional views. I think you'll be impressed. I'm actually not quite a Calvinist because that's what I wanted to be, I just can't rationalize the Bible and life any other way. ;)
 
Thank you all for helping. And Ryan. Don't we all have a little Calvinist in us :) I totally agree Guido!! Thank you all for the help. I will definitely look into the creeds & confessional views. Their is a lot of them, but I will search for reformed confessions and creeds.
 
@Richard2YHWH
I would start with getting more familiar with the historic reformed documents. Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism, Canons of Dort (The whole thing, not the misappropriated “TULIP”), the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms.
 
This is where I will start
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/BelgicConfession.pdf
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/HeidelbergCatechism.pdf
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/Canons%20of%20Dordt.pdf
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/Westminster%20Confession%20of%20Faith.pdf

Thank you for the info everyone. May God Bless each of you as you grow in Him
 
And with that, I will close this thread which should not have started in the first place.

Move along...

Nothing to see here.
 
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