Disengagegment

[bond-servant]

The Bible is clear that God puts into power whom He chooses, and that His will shall be done and none can stay His hand.

That said, what are your thoughts on the disengagement from the Gaza strip?

We know many times trouble makes man turn to God.
The NY Times had this picture of the disengagement which read: " A Jewish settler waved a flag for the Messiah as they clashed with Israeli police and soldiers"

From the 'human' standpoint, its really sad. Not only is it Israeli against Palestinian, but it is Israeli against Israeli. Soldier against settler, and those that are pro-disengagement in blue against those against it in orange.

Jesus said "a house divided can not stand"

How do ya'll see this?

 

[JonathanHunt]

Interesting thoughts. A long time ago I posted on the PB about Palestinian Christians. We too easily forget that there are a large number of them, and that Palestinians are not all Muslims.

In fact, I believe there may be more Palestinians who follow Christ than Israelis.

That said, I bet the Palestinian Christians don't get much benefit out of the new land.

JH

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I don't know how I would handle it, if I had to be evicted from a home and neighborhood I know for 20 years. politics aside, no man likes to give up what he calls home.


Besides that, I don't see how effective the PLO will be able to govern the two separated territories of the West Bank and Gaza. I think a North/ South division of Palestine would be much more feasible.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

It's a very sad situation on many levels.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

My

Elitist British and French colonialism is largely responsible for the present miseries in that part of the world. Every "group" (not every individual) has blood on its hands. Theft, brutality, revenge, lust for spoil, plotting, mixed with bravery, tenacity, meekness, suffering, and injustice. Each party has some or all of these. The British got tired of trying to control the area, especially with the Zionists (there was no "Israel" then) murdering whole villiages to ethnically cleanse areas, terrorizing away the surrounding inhabitants. This doesn't justify tit for tat, just reminds us who the original "landless partisans" were in this part of the world.

These Gaza settlers were sold a bad bill of goods. And most of them are (or were) willing dupes. Many, if not most or all, think the god they worship promised them this territory 4000 years ago, and fulfilled that promise. And they choose not to believe the testimony of their own Scriptures that their ancestors could forfeit it, and did. So they claim by this supposed gift that to which they have no other claim--but it is a powerful addiction, because it is supposed to have divine sanction, and is therefore worth the price of blood.

The Palestinian Authority will not improve the general lot of Palestinians. They too have been sold a bill of goods. The people at the top will continue to live high on the hog of foreign aid, while the periodic plebecites continue to give them a veneer of "legitimacy" and "respectability" before a people and world that, as yet, continue to be overawed by the much-touted efficiency and stability of "democracy," the true opiate of the masses. In fact, democracy has a pretty terrible track-record (our own founders abhored it, and tried mightily to spare us its depredations). The Palestinians will weary of it, while their leaders will eventually resort to scapegoating the Israelies for their (largely Muslim) misery, much as Arafat did.

I have a prediction (nothing infallible): Jerusalem will be the next city vaporized by an atomic explosion, followed by Mecca (or vice versa). I think that will be the end of dispensational theology. In the aftermath of this devastation... ?

 

[bond-servant]

Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
My
...
I have a prediction (nothing infallible): Jerusalem will be the next city vaporized by an atomic explosion, followed by Mecca (or vice versa). I think that will be the end of dispensational theology. In the aftermath of this devastation... ?

Interesting thoughts! A war like that would be *so* sad. BUT... well, hmmm.. the end of Dispensational theology.... On the light side, if there *was* an atomic explosion, at least something positive would come out of it!

For what it's worth: I have a Jewish friend that believes that the combined forces of the PLO and Hamas with Al Qaeda will be the ones starting the
military fighting which will in the next month or so

 

[Poimen]

First of all, I find it absolutely sickening that hard-core dispensationalists side with the Jews over Palestinian Christians. This is so twisted that it makes me want to wretch.

Second of all, I don't think this disengagement will do anything for peace in the area. These people (extremist Muslims) want to kill the Jews and will influence and/or finance the Palestinians to further violence (especially now that they have control of a large territory).

The only way this will work is if you could ferret out all the terrorists and extremists in the Middle East, which of course will never happen. Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Saudia Arabia and (even with American presence) Iraq are all breeding grounds for terrorists. Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't think that there will ever be peace in the Middle East unless there is a massive revival (on the scale of Pentecost or larger).

 

[bond-servant]

Originally posted by poimen


. Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't think that there will ever be peace in the Middle East unless there is a massive revival (on the scale of Pentecost or larger).

Actually, that's more optimistic than I am - I don't think there will be peace until the second coming! Just kidding... well, no, not really....

 

[Anton Bruckner]

so since the Jews are giving up Gaza back to the "original inhabitants", are Libya, Iran, Iraq and Algeria going to give back those land that they took from Jews when they expelled them?

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

My
Putting who should own the land aside I am worried that if Israel withdraws Egypt will start taking interest in the area. I am not predicting an invasion or anything major - just a slow economic take over which would turn Palestine into an Egyptian puppet state and backwater. I suppose it already is these things in a way already. The Palestinians need a lot of western aid just to get them onto their feet, loosen their ties with Egypt and give them the ability to control themselves.

It is sad. It is also a big waste. I was watching all those houses burn. Money better be put into the Palestinians to rebuild there otherwise things are going to be worse than before. I also believe there should be foreign help (and not Saudi or Egyptian) in training a good Palestinian police force. In the past there have been problems because Israel has not really been allowing the Palestinian security forces to do their job. They have such big asks of them but never give them room to act.

On a side/end note which is sort of off topic: Hamas and alQaeda have different ideologies. On the outside they can appear the same but we all know what mistake nonChristians make when they do the same with Christianity. I would advise not be quick to compare the two organisations. Both may have worked out how to exploit religion for political gain, both might have learnt how to blow themselves up in the name of Allah BUT they are 'theologicaly' different. AlQaeda supports Hamas but Hamas does not support AlQaeda. While members inside Hamas are anti-US Hamas as an organisation is not violently against the United States. I just wanted to make this clear.

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Originally posted by Slippery
so since the Jews are giving up Gaza back to the "original inhabitants", are Libya, Iran, Iraq and Algeria going to give back those land that they took from Jews when they expelled them?

I thought Iraq kept Jews? I remember reading a news article about how Iraq had large Jewish communities which survived Saddam Hussien and have since shrunk since the US invasion. It was the US invasion which gave them the fatal blow. ie. Iraqi patriotism became a dislike of the invaders and other outsiders, a dislike for outsiders and the invaders led to Islamic zeal and finally this all started to push Jews and Christians out of Iraq.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih
While members inside Hamas are anti-US Hamas as an organisation is not violently against the United States. I just wanted to make this clear.

Just to give the American perspective on Hamas,

Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel, as well as numerous human rights organizations, and its activities have been condemned by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and by Human Rights Watch in the past.

In 2004, a federal court in the United States found Hamas guilty in a civil lawsuit regarding the 1996 murders of Yaron and Efrat Ungar near Beit Shemesh, Israel. Hamas has been ordered to pay the families of the Ungar's $116 million. On July 5, 2004, the court issued a default judgment against the Palestinian Authority and the PLO regarding the Ungar's claim that the Palestinian Authority and the PLO provide safe haven to Hamas.

and

The United States has taken a strong stand against Hamas because of its use of violence and its opposition to U.S. interests in the Middle East. There is added concern on the part of U.S. policymakers because of reports that Hamas is receiving support from Iran and is collaborating with its Lebanese client, [Hezbollah] [believed to have been responsible for the bombing of the Marine barracks and the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon in the mid-1980's and for the subsequent kidnapping and imprisonment of American citizens in that country].

[Edited on 8-18-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih

Originally posted by Slippery
so since the Jews are giving up Gaza back to the "original inhabitants", are Libya, Iran, Iraq and Algeria going to give back those land that they took from Jews when they expelled them?

I thought Iraq kept Jews? I remember reading a news article about how Iraq had large Jewish communities which survived Saddam Hussien and have since shrunk since the US invasion. It was the US invasion which gave them the fatal blow. ie. Iraqi patriotism became a dislike of the invaders and other outsiders, a dislike for outsiders and the invaders led to Islamic zeal and finally this all started to push Jews and Christians out of Iraq.

Most Iraqi Jews left Iraq in the 1950's following the creation of Israel and in the 1970's under Ba'athist persecution. This article covers the history.