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Did Noah live long enough to know Abraham?

Discussion in 'OT Historical Books' started by Grimmson, Jun 2, 2010.

  1. Yes

    18.2%
  2. No

    31.8%
  3. I have no opinion one way or the other

    40.9%
  4. Who cares, it a silly debate

    18.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Grimmson

    Grimmson Puritan Board Sophomore

    Here a question that may generate some debate and one that may reflect our views of genealogies as it compares to the 6000 year age date of the Earth. It is not a question we should divide over, call each other liberals/fundamentalists, or worse heretics. Now for the question:

    Did Noah live long enough to have possibly known Abraham? Explain your position.:book2::2cents:

    And for added fun, I included a poll that we can all see each other's results. Yeah!!! Now that what I call fun. :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  2. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    The question, right, is not whether he knew Abraham, but whether he could have known him?
     
  3. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Ohh so are you a post-modern sissy, is that it?

    :p
     
  4. Grimmson

    Grimmson Puritan Board Sophomore

    At the heart that is the question. Thanks for correcting my grammar.

    ---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 12:02 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-01-2010 at 11:57 PM ----------

    Sissy me? You obiviously didn’t see my work against partial preterism or my defense for non-Solomon authorship of Ecclesiastes . Or did you? LOL.
    But really all, explain your position on the main question of this thread.

    ---------- Post added at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------

    Maybe one of the moderators could fix the grammatical mistake of the poll.
     
  5. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Personally, I've never even considered this question before. I suppose it just never occurred to me before you brought it up. :think:
     
  6. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    What would Usher's timeline say?
     
  7. Jimmy the Greek

    Jimmy the Greek Puritan Board Senior

    Ussher's chronology has Noah's birth in 2948 BC, his death in 1998 BC, followed by Abraham's call in 1920 BC. In this scenario, Abraham was called 78 years after Noah died. I can't find what Abraham's supposed age was when he was called.
     
  8. goodnews

    goodnews Puritan Board Freshman

    I seem to remember Abram being 75 when God called him from Haran. If all our chronology is correct then it's amazing how quickly the human race forgot the true God, even while Noah was alive.
     
  9. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Ussher holds that Abraham was born 2008 years after Adam’s birth, 4004 – 1997 BC, or year 1 AM (Anno Mundi – year of the world) – 2008 AM.

    We know that Noah was 600 years old when the flood came upon the earth (Gen 7:6); this was the year 1656 AM (2348 BC). We know that Noah lived to age 950, living 350 years after the flood (Gen 9:28, 29), which brings him to the year 2006 AM when he died.

    The differing schools of chronological reckoning agree in the 2008 years from Adam to Abraham (save the Rabbinic school, which is patently off), though some differ slightly on the creation start date; they likewise agree that the flood was 1656 years after the creation.

    Trouble comes in to some reckonings as regards the age of Abraham’s father, Terah, when Abraham was born, whether it was when he was 130 years old or 70. D.A. Waite holds that Abraham was 88 years old when Noah died, though I don’t have access to his proofs, having only the chart of his results, copied out of his book, Gems from Genesis, p. viii. He is in disagreement with the other chronologists.

    As far as Ussher is concerned, Abraham was born two years after Noah died. I think this is probably sound.

    Now Noah’s son, Shem, was still alive in the days of Abraham, though we have no indication they ever met.

    I’ve been collecting the writings of the differing schools, though have not had the time to devote myself to studying them in depth. Obviously I am of the young earth camp.
     
  10. Pilgrim Standard

    Pilgrim Standard Puritan Board Sophomore

     
  11. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    Another amazing thing is that Noah's dad, Lamech, could have met Adam. He was around 56 when Adam died if you follow the numbers in Gen. 5.
     
  12. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    And that kind of thing (if Hodge, Schaeffer, et al are incorrect about there being gaps in the Genesis genealogy) is why written revelation was not so necessary then.
     
  13. Augusta

    Augusta Puritan Board Doctor

    According to the book of Jasher they lived at the same time. Book of Jasher 9
     
  14. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Hello Traci,

    I don't give the book of Jasher (what we have in its name today) any credence, but rather as adding to the word of God. That there was such a book back then the Scripture affirms, though it was not accorded the status of Scripture and included in the canon. What we have of it today (in 3 versions) is like a Hollywood movie treating the Bible, full of fanciful additions.
     
  15. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Wow, fascinating thread!
     
  16. Augusta

    Augusta Puritan Board Doctor

    Steve, would you give it the same credence as say Josephus? He said some fanciful things as well but people still give much credence to his historical record.
     
  17. Skyler

    Skyler Puritan Board Graduate

    I voted "Yes", "No", and "Who cares, it [sic] a silly debate". I didn't feel like looking it up and doing the math right now. :)
     
  18. Grimmson

    Grimmson Puritan Board Sophomore

    I know am not Steve, but maybe this may help.

    There one major issue with the use of Jasher compared to Josephus. Josephus was written at the end of the first century. Jasher was written, or the version that was linked, about the 12 to 13th century. Creating such documents was not uncommon in the medieval world. In fact we have a ton of them, neither one of them we would want to necessarily use for the teaching of scripture. It can be a good reflection to the traditions held to by a people at a given time. I have not done the detail analysis of the text to see if there are any clear contradictions between Jasher and the scriptures, but one thing should be clear, it was not written as history, but a forgery towards that history. Josephus was written as history, not as a forgery to another book and you can figure out what some of those sources are that he used. His work stands alone. If you want in the medieval times to get your book circulated then you subscribe to its title a familiar character in scripture that has little or no back ground material on it for that time.

    So I would not use it with the same credence as Josephus, which I can point to some of his sources that he used. Jasher linked to should not be confused with the text of 2 Samuel 1:8 or with Joshua 10:13, based on the dating subscribed to the text.

    ---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

    Come on do the math. I have always said math good for the soul.

    I use to be a math teacher.
     
  19. Curt

    Curt Puritan Board Graduate

    Did you mean Usher? Or Seal?
     
  20. Skyler

    Skyler Puritan Board Graduate

    Meh. I'm an engineering teacher, so I guess I should set a good example.

    Abram was born 2+35+30+37+30+32+30+29+70=295 years after the flood, according to Genesis 11. That puts him at 1951 AC. Noah would have died 2006 AC, if he lived 350 years after the flood, so Abram would have been about 55 when he died.

    So yes.
     
  21. Grimmson

    Grimmson Puritan Board Sophomore


    Jonathan, just like an engineer I see one number off. So you are setting a good example as an engineer. :lol: (I can explain this later.) Of course all kidding aside, going back to chapter 11:16:
    “Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg.”
    Notice it is 34 and not 37 in accordance to ESV and NKJV. I figure it is a mistake based on the 7 being on top of the 4 with the number pad on the right hand of the key board. So subtract 3 and you will get 292 which is what I got.

    Now for the rest of you:
    I am surprised I do not see more under the yes column keeping in mind how me literal 6000 year new earthers we have in here. If your answer is no, then why. Explain the justification for the gap theory in the genealogies. Or if year does not mean 365-day year in a person’s age. By the way if you wanted to know my answer to the poll it was no. I’ll let you all have some fun and respond before I do.
     
  22. Grimmson

    Grimmson Puritan Board Sophomore

    Before am called a sissy again for not giving a detailed answer, I will give two hints to my position.
    Hint 1: Luke 3:36
    Hint 2: Generation count being 10 for Gen. 5 and 11.
     
  23. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Some milestone dates, and a Biblical timeline


    Flood . . . . . 1656 Anno Mundi

    Noah . . . . . 600 yrs old at Flood . . . Died 350 years later in 2006 . . . Gen 7:6; 9:28, 29

    Shem . . . . 100 yrs old at Flood . . . Gen 11:10

    Arphaxad born of Shem 2 years after flood 1658 . . . Gen 11:10

    Salah born of Arphaxad in 1693, when Arphaxad was 35 . . . Gen 11:12

    Eber born of Salah in 1723, when Selah was 30 . . . Gen 11:

    Peleg born of Eber in 1757, when Eber was 34 . . . Gen 11:16

    Reu born of Peleg in 1787, when Peleg was 30 . . . Gen 11:18

    Serug born of Reu in 1819, when Reu was 32 . . . Gen 11:20

    Nahor born of Serug in 1849, when Serug was 30 . . . Gen 11:22

    Terah born of Serug in 1878, when Serug was 29 . . . Gen 11:24

    Abram born of Terah in 2008, when Terah was 130 . . . Gen 11:27, 32; 12:4; Acts 7:4

    ----------

    I realize some posit the age of Terah when Abraham was born at 70, due to Genesis 11:26,

    And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.​

    That Moses mentioned Abram first does not mean that Abram was born first (and in Terah’s 70th year), but that he was the blessed of God and a progenitor of the Messiah. The very same thing happens with the sons of Noah. Shem is listed first (cf. Gen 5:32; 6:10; 10:1; 1 Chron 1:4) even though Japheth is the elder (Gen 10:21), and this because the line of the “seed of the woman” went through Shem, as it did through Abraham. When Jacob and Esau are mentioned together, Jacob has the priority even though he is the younger (Josh 24:4; Heb 11:20). There are many other instances of this.

    Gen 12:4 says that “Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.” Acts 7:4 says this of Abraham,

    Then came he out of the land of the Chaldæans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.​

    Now if Abraham was 75 when he left Harran, and he left “when his father was dead” – and we know Terah died at the age of 205 in Harran (Gen 11:32), then 205 - 75 = 130, as the age Terah begat Abraham.

    As for Luke 3:36, which places Cainan in the lineage between Arphaxad and Salah (Sala), where the Genesis genealogy omits mention of Cainan, some remarks:

    First, the absence of a person in the lineage does not annul the tightly interlocking numeric values between the patriarchs and their offspring. As Floyd Nolan Jones, in his Chronology of the Old Testament puts it,

    For regardless of the number of names or descendants that might be missing between Arphaxad and Salah (or any other two patriarchs) their lives are mathematically interlocked and a fixed relationship exists; when Salah was born, Arphaxad was thirty-five years old and so on across the entire span in question. Consequently, no time can possibly be missing even though names may so be. Strange as it may seem at first, in this instance the two concepts are mutually exclusive. (p. 34)​

    Dr. Jones is firm that both the Genesis genealogy and the one in Luke 3 are correct and both the infallible word of God. While admitting there is no explanation for the omission given in Scripture, Jones gives a number of scenarios to show how it may have come to be. Here is one of them:

    In this scenario both Arphaxad and Cainan (Arphaxad’s son) married young. Cainan dies after conceiving Salah but before his birth. At age 35, Arphaxad then adopts his grandson, Salah (like Jacob adopted his grandsons, Ephraim and Manasseh). (Mat. 1:1; Heb. 7:9-10) [Footnote: Compare Ruth 4:17 which declares that “there is a son born to Naomi”, whereas technically she is his step mother-in-law. . .] (Ibid., p. 35)​

    At any rate, the Cainan spoken of in Luke 3:36 poses no threat to the timeline of Genesis 11, only a mystery. The LXX versions of Genesis 11 which posit a Cainan in them are spurious, patently contriving to construct an order which fails.

    I had noted in post #9 of this thread, difficulty enters the genealogical comparison between Noah and Abraham regarding Terah’s age at Abraham’s birth; I hope what I have written above satisfactorily addresses that (though surely not everyone will be convinced – as my commentaries show!). I do think it sound to say that Noah died two years before Abraham saw the light of day.

    As for there being 10 generations both before the Flood and after it to Abraham, with both Noah and Terah having three sons, and what some say about these two lineages being but formulaic compilations with gaps between people and generations, this theory can be disproven (in the first lineage) by attestation of Scripture, and in the second, as I have shown above.

    Our wonderful Saviour has kept His promise to give us an intact, infallible, preserved word of God, that we may have comfort and strength in the holy Scriptures. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but His words shall not pass away (Cf. Matt 24:35).
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
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